Well my assumption for the metaphor is that it would be a short route, with very frequent stops, akin to a typical urban bus service. These routes are often focussed mostly or wholly within a single city and will often lack variety in services, and it is usually the case that where longer higher-speed services are available, they are over very quickly, so give you little opportunity to settle in and enjoy a 'meaningful' run. I have no opposition to such routes (as long as they feel 'complete' in their length or at least have logical endpoints), provided I have a personal interest in the stock used or the area represented. Otherwise it doesn't do much for me.
It’s just more fun to me getting up to a trains max speed and watching the scenery fly by and then stopping about 15 minutes later for one of station or once for express trains before the terminus you also just get to see more stuff like freight trains flying by you at 60 mph or other passenger trains doing higher speeds, on occasion maybe a light loco
I enjoy the challenge of making a professional stop from high speed, i.e. accurate and without the passengers spilling their (MaxPak) tea.
Bus stop simulator, train simulator, aircraft simulator, walking/running simulator, ticket inspector simulator and passenger chaos simulator all rolled into one. Forgot to add wether chaos simulator.
If we had the orient express we'd have crime scene simulator as well, now that would be a killer Idea.....
Plenty of routes that are not "bus stop" routes in TSW, no need for this kind of silly comment. Matt.
Post fixes, I have been enjoying WCMLS. It offers a good mix of service variety with the bus stop type TfL services, some bus stop LNWR, some express bus stop LNWR, and then the express Avanti services. Kind of means that as a general rule of thumb there is a service to drive regardless of what I fancy doing at the time. Would like to see more routes with similar variety in the game. KGX to PBO comes to mind as a similar section (with TL/GN doing the bus stop services, and LNER/HT/GC/LD etc. doing the fast services)
Not only that, I was thinking back to the heady days of ripping the guts out of the PS1 and PS2 to run the Densha De Go games. I actually have fond memories of running routes like the Osaka Loop Line or the famous Yamanote Line in Tokyo. The latter is a frantic bus stop but of course in DDG (certainly in DDG Final where you got the unabridged full version), you had several types of trains to drive plus all the passing trains on the various lines which intersect and/or run parallel for a while. So "bus stop" is not necessarily a derogatory term, it's just a type of driving experience compared to the other service types on offer. Part of the problem for UK players on UK suburban routes is that none of them are really that exciting in real life either, so driving in a sim is likely to be mundane too. So I'm far more likely to go for an urban or suburban route somewhere a bit different or even exotic. like the aforementioned routes in DDG.
I have to agree with Matt regarding silly 'bus stop' comments. We all have preferences concerning the comparison between longer non-stop services and 'local' services, hence my preference for routes such as WCML-S or MBTA routes which combine both types of services. Of course I would support MK to New Street as a separate route-hopping DLC (especially with the Northampton loop). But consider the problems, first has to be same period but would probably have to omit those services not stopping at Milton Keynes and freight services, most of which just pass through MK. ECML I find boring because of the few stops and limited rolling stock variety - much better to have created ECML Peterborough to London or London Ipswitch so we have that variety.
Well not so silly really. The commuter routes ( for which " bus stop " is a euphemism ) seem to be the dominant format in the last 2 or 3 years. A fairly sharp contrast to the early years of TSW, you surely would concede. Of course, as you've said, that's what players seem to want. " More's the pity" is all he might be trying to say. A sentiment shared by quite a few of us.
My take of a 'bus stop' style simulator is one of shorter routes peppered with timetables. I have purchased from DTG almost all there is for TSC and have about 70% of TSW DLC. I am no rail expert. My perception is that TSW DLC is for short trips. TSC is the only time I can run some longer more fulfilling routes especially US routes. My dream would be to be able to run one of the Amtrak runs such as the Texas Eagle, the Empire Builder or California Zephyr. Of course these will never come to fruition as they would be too large for any Train Simulator to do it justice. As mentioned before the Timetables appear to consume a lot of the memory allocation. In my opinion to the detriment of the length of route provided. Do I play TSW - yes as I mentioned before I have a large collection. Do I personally prefer TSC - currently yes. I would personally like to see TSW (maybe through a 3rd party like ATS) who could strip out the timetables and thread together some of the existing (and future) TSW routes and make them longer. It IS a great pity that TSW does not currently cater for those of us who want to take the journey and run a longer route rather than the repetitive TT offerings. Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of users who probably prefer the TT style of DLC (which again I see as a bus route) emulating the role a typical operator may perform day after day. I am hoping that the TSW world one day may cater for those of us who prefer the 'journey'. I recognize that TSC is a waning product and really want to get more excited about TSW. For me there is definitely something missing. Everyone has an opinion. Those of us who have spent well over $5k of DTG DLC should also be listened to. Respectfully
Actually I thought that was always the plan. I figured you would make more sections for the ECML back when that was released so we would get Kings Cross to Peterborough as an ECML part 2 theb Doncaster to Newcastle as part 3 and so on. Spread out over time of course not one after another Same with WCML sections, or KWG part 2 to Mannheim or the NEC. You already are doing pretty much the same thing already with the US commuter routes such as MBTA and Metrolink routes by doing a line at a time and people seem to like those so I don't see why it wouldn't be accepted as an alternative to route extensions for long mainlines. Just a thought.
Not really GWE is a bus stop route with the 166, as well as Rapid Transit, Peninsula Corridor, LIRR, MSB had strange start and end points. So even since the beginning only every 1 out of 6 routes can be considered non bus stop style routes since the beginning. So no different now than before, but pretty much any passenger route could be considered a bus stop style route. They are pretty much the same type of transportation. Flixbus and Greyhound make long trips with long drive between as well as the short city routes. Thats why I never understood the term to begin with.
it has always been like this, starting from the Great Western Express Route, very first passenger route!)
Hi DTG Matt I understand you're busy, but I’ve noticed that when I and others share our opinions, which are often valid, you don’t always respond. I like to provide in-depth, constructive feedback without any disrespect. My goal is to offer valid opinions that could enhance the experience for everyone. One suggestion I have is a route from Milton Keynes Central to Birmingham New Street. For this to work well, route hopping would be ideal—using the same weather, same unit, and possibly the same time, though I understand some flexibility might be needed from a development perspective. I think this would be an amazing addition, allowing for a full, immersive run. My only concern is that if you’re simulating a 9G service (a non-stop route from London Euston to Birmingham New Street), it often passes through Milton Keynes and only stops at Coventry. This could slightly break the immersion for a route that includes Milton Keynes as a stop. That said, I’m not saying I wouldn’t love this route—it’s just a small worry. If you consider creating a Milton Keynes Central to Birmingham New Street route, I’d be thrilled. Ideally, it could be added as a paid extension to the existing WCML South route, similar to what was done with SEHS. This would make it even better in my opinion. Everyone has their own thoughts, of course, but I’d happily pay extra for a route like this. I love the game and want the developers to be rewarded for their efforts. A full London Euston to Birmingham New Street route would make me ecstatic, and I’d be equally excited for a Milton Keynes Central to Birmingham New Street route. For services that stop at Milton Keynes, it would be great to have an option at the end of the route that says, “Do you want to continue this exact service on the Milton Keynes Central to Birmingham route?” with a simple “Yes” or “No” choice. Similarly, for a non-stop 9G service from London Euston to Birmingham New Street, when passing Milton Keynes, a prompt could appear saying, “This route ends here. Do you want to continue this service at the current speed on the Milton Keynes Central to Birmingham route?” with “Yes” or “No” options. I think this feature would be fantastic and add a lot to the game’s immersion.
In general it's a tragedy that train simulation (and trams for that matter) always leaves so much to desire (in any game) whilst flight simulation, truck simulation or any other simulator seems to able to deliver what everyone wants through modern technology, AI and streaming. It is always said, that train simulation is the most complex to make and can´t use certain technology to speed up the process. It is also stated, that other genres have more players and resources. Maybe they have more players and more resources, because they deliver the full experience? Is anyone complaining about long haul flights on MSFS 24? No, because it´s not an issue and no one has to design the landscape from Dubai to Frankfurt by hand. I understand that AI may not be in a place yet to design lineside detail, catenary and signals etc.... but it will be some day. I´m confident that technology and AI will one day deliver a train simulator, where you can drive anything you want without much trouble. Flight simulation has already gotten to that point. But who knows how long it will take. 5 years, 10 years , 20 years?
Thus proving kilt46's point. Actually though, I see a difference between GWE, NTP , TVL, BPE and DRA as opposed to BCC, Glossop, Goblin, Mildmay, and now MAC. Maybe it's the rolling stock, maybe it's the shorter distance between stops, I'm not sure. For example, one tedious run and back on Goblin was all I could manage before it went on the shelf. For me, there is a marked difference between routes up to and including Rush Hour and routes since. It's just that lack of balance that we used to have with some US freight mixed in with passenger runs. So I'm expecting yet another UK commuter and yet another US commuter and perhaps yet another Austrian commuter route for the launch of TSW6.
I respond as often as I can but I don't get lots of time to look at the forums so I frequently miss things Matt.
This is why I moved "backwards" this Steam sale and went to TSC (despite already heavily investing into TSW to start with) and would recommend the same to anyone on PC just starting out with TS or looking for something more.. You always think new is better! So when I decided to get into trainsim (finally) I thought TSW was going to be it not knowing any better.. That was until I got invested in it, and yes why I have enjoyed my initial experience, I still felt it lacked in areas and many DLC got boring fast after one or two runs of the same linear line, while many came up way too short! With TSC and mods (especially those that have brought many of the older DLCs up to a modern std) its just a better train sim in my opinion for anyone on PC. Overall the satisfaction of all the rolling stock available, non-linear options and the route lengths is just a joy to play! For me driving a service from Euston to Birmingham, Birmingham to Liverpool Lime st, Kings cross to York or even London Victoria to Dover prior in the one sitting for over an hour with the AP veg/sky/track + cloud enhancements hasn't got boring yet, along with some of the stop start options on many of the main lines like Southeastern network, coming out of Charing cross, Blackfriars or Cannon St on your way to Hayes or Sevenoaks or London bridge around to Victoria has been a cracking experience! With this change I have no plans for anything TSW for now, I even decided not to go ahead with Manchester Airport after initially being excited for that DLC...
Yes I have done Euston to New Street on TSC few times without mods and everything else and I really do enjoy it being able to do it in one sitting of around hour and half. Truly immersive. It be amazing if there was a timetable mode on the route. But if I can get the money to do all the necessary mods and that I would love that but I just don't but idm it.
So I typed the rest of it not to get a reply or just a honest opinion from you? All you can tell me you don't get lots of time. Which is fair enough but I detailed that and tried to ensure it was easy to read and understand it.
+1 That’s actually a really good explanation on how it could work, especially with the transition from Part 1 and Part 2 of the route. In terms of the evolution of the game, this is a step in the right direction.
Aye thanks mate! Appreciate that! Happy you acknowledged that. Do try and help the game as much as possible.
Back to my point from before: this is why train simulation is niche and underwhelming compared to other genres. While everything else is getting bigger and better, train simulation is getting shorter. I´m aware of all the reasons why: it´s more complex and more detailed than older games, it needs to make people money, it´s too complicated to design long routes etc... but the casual gamer does not care for all this inside information. What do you want do? Fly all over the globe? Drive Trucks through different scenic countries or would you rather drive a commuter train from Gospel Oak to Barking? You get what I´m saying... Train simulation does not need a discussion about if a route should go to Milton Keynes or to Birmingham and if the Northampton Loop can be included. Train simulation needs a revolution. Same goes for trams. Why is there still no game in 2025, that can depict entire tram networks from different parts of the world in a satisfying way?
I love how you're trying to get a reaction from me. No need for your input unless you have anything useful to play in this specific thread?
And Fred scores a monster goal, cleanly through the back of the net to infinity and beyond, that sucker going to keep on trucking.......
I was referring to the recent short UK routes. (Not saying they’re ALL short). I also wouldn’t quite call those U.S routes “recent”.
I try not to comment too much on specific suggestions because people (not you, but there are lots of people reading this stuff) have a tendency to run away and later i'll see "dtg thought x was great, probably a leak!". I read the suggestions forum all the time, rarely comment. MK to Birmingham is an interesting route, as are many others. The idea of having linked services so that you can more easily transition from route a to route b is one that i've already started looking into but it has a lot of technical challenge - you're either linking it all up which is an extensive editing job going to each service and mapping it to the onward one on the other route, OR, reworking timetables to make them fit some kind of automatic system using the reporting number or something like that (which may not work in all cases either as sometimes TRN's get re-used, some countries don't have them consistently etc). It's less of an issue where you add a new route to an existing one because you could just build the new timetable to match the existing one (though that denies you the possibility to make the new timetable bigger/better without also reworking the old one... at which point it gets prohibitively time consuming). But if we add a feature that lets you easily "train hop", I don't know about everyone else, but I'd want it on as many routes as possible that have linkage and it would feel especially weak as a feature if it only worked on new routes (I mean personally I don't like it when new features only work on new routes at all, but, there are good reasons for that). Matt.
I disagree with that. I think it is unfair for people to always expect new features to be available on older routes. Sure it would be great if it could but adding something like this to a future TSW release would be a great addition. I would just be happy to have it in the game and another section of a route I enjoy.
ATS have proven themselves capable with TSC and the full ECML etc. They could provide an alternative 3rd party merge of routes as they have done before (as have JT and RSSLO). It may need to have less TT content to make it viable, however, it would provide an alternative to cater for players who enjoy longer routes.
I mean, if your experience of driving a train is exciting for any reason other than the thrill of getting to drive a train, something has gone horribly wrong somewhere, probably involving lax adherence to health and safety standards..
Let’s cut to the chase. Why do I like simulators? I like to see places I have been or places I would like to go to. I enjoy the journey and variety of geographical locations as I drive through. I have driven 48 states and 6 Canadian Provinces (and most of the UK). I have really enjoyed TSC, however, it now feels like DTG is disrespecting this user base by not communicating (as they said they would) about its future. This leads one to believe everything has been put into the TSW basket. The only problem with this (although I did NOT coin this phrase) there are users like me who feel our particular urge is not being catered for and that the main focus is with the Bus Stop TT style of short routes which are very repetitive. There is no integration and a feeling of lots of little DLC. My own background as a software integrator is curious why not (future state) have a road map to pull some of the existing asset packs together, strip down the complexity of the TT and offer as a future enhanced larger network Quick Drive. This is what RSSLO has been doing with Austria. At least provide this vision since sooner or later as the DLC packs grow there MUST be at least an opportunity to integrate into a larger network. And even if this is not the direction DTG sees to be where the money is, provide this opportunity to another 3rd party to develop. Respectfully
I'm curious as to where dtg have come to the conclusion that longer routes don't sell? As far as I'm aware they have not made many? If they are going by the sales of kessel wurzburg then to be frank, a route with a self driving train with a scenery that's mostly tunnels and trees I'm not surprised if it didn't sell well. Or am I missing something. Was there a poll I missed or something.
I definitely think that's a conversation that needs to happen. Plenty of opportunities for smaller sections of mainlines to be added with a branch line here or there to complete connections to major stations. Would probably help with performance done this way aswell. Having a bit of a plan in how to approach UK mainlines in the future, so that they are split into manageable lengths, would prevent 3rd party developers from stepping on each others toes aswell. We can have a nice mix of eras too, I don't think the majority of the userbase is going to be all that bothered if the wcml is eventually all joined up but across two different eras for example. If anything we could get two different timetables for them and expand the gameplay opportunities substantially from a single dlc!
The only use of longer routes for me is fast express services with very few or no stops, the ones that spring to mind specifically are Pendo and HST on WCMLS and GWE, but ICE and Acela are other examples. I’d be chary of making US freight routes longer unless they were cross state inter modal and that would work too. Otherwise I think the game works ok, maybe Crewe in MAC would have been nice, at least MildMay is being extended. I don’t mind 30-40 minute drives.
But TSW only loads the scenery tile you are actually driving in not the whole route I believe. It could be done.
Morning/Afternoon Matt Sorry for the late response. Thank you very much responding. I do totally understand you on the fact where people take it the wrong way and then think its 100% coming then they give you an ear full because it hasn't happened. I didn't think about that way as a customer but as a Developer as yourself I totally understand that thought. Thank you for thinking about it, I could only imagine the amount of time and resources to get it linked up to correctly have the weather and same unit number as the service on Euston to MK. As I said I would 100% take a MK to Birmingham route would love that, even better if it was an extension to the Euston to MK but not a worry if not. Also the Northampton Loop to Include as well which be a big one so I understand there would be tones of modelling to do, but I know you guys at Dovetail have the well experienced staff and are fully capable of doing such a route and it would truly be an iconic route. It be the last you hear from me . But hey as I said I be happy either way Matt Thank you very much for taking your time to explain and give you're opinion. Can't wait to see you at the Greatest Gathering!
Get what your saying mate but 2 different eras of the WCML is a big No for me. I dont want to do a Euston to MK run Modern then a BR one on the next WCML route if MK to Brum would ever happen. Massive Fat No.
Nobody's said that. Longer routes are popular, but not much more than shorter routes and have just as many people saying "ugh long and boring" than those saying "Ugh bus route" on the shorter ones A long route isn't a guaranteed slam dunk either, so is a much bigger risk. Kassel was very popular. But, that was a long route that was only achievable at that length because of the more plain scenery. A long route through big cities and towns all the time would be a very different proposition. Matt.
