Why Haven't More French Routes Followed After Lgv Méditerranée?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by jolojonasgames, Mar 4, 2022.

  1. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Now, to start off I'd like to clarify that even though I've made and supported French suggestions in the past, this post is meant to be neutral, and I'll try my best to make it so. I just wondered why DTG never bothered to get more yse out of the assets and safety systems they made for LGV. They (kind of) re-used TVM on SEHS, but KVB (the more conventional French safety system, present on all non-high speed routes) was never re-used and seems to have been developed solely for a short section in Marseille for LGV.

    As DTG stated a long time ago that one of the reasons for them not introducing new countries is that they'd have to completely build safety systems for the ground up, making it unprofitable unless they plan to make more routes with that system (and thus in most cases from that country). When LGV came out this made me assume another French route would come at some point, however, a year later, there is no such route, and neither does one seem to be coming.

    I just wondered why that's the case, as (okay, this sentence won't be neutral), making another French route seems to be the easiest way to meet the demand for a little more variety country-wise, as safety systems, signal assets and verious other things have already been developed, with even the TGV Duplex being re-usable or layerable depending on the route (though another French high-speed only route seems to be superfluous).

    Is there just no demand for more routes, have DTG's priorities changed or am I wrongly assuming that the safety systems are already fully developed and in-game? And in General I'd like to understand what France's case means for other new countries such as the Netherlands or Japan means that players would like to see. Is France evidence for new countries just not working? It would be a shame if so, though Rivet offers hope that 3rd parties might bring a change to the landscape, as they're developing the first normal gauge Swiss route at this moment.

    Anyhow, let me know your thoughts, and please remember that my general intention is for this thread to be an analysis for France's case, and not neccesarily a call for more French routes. I'd be more than happy to hear both sides of the discussion whether more French routes make or should make sense. :)
     
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  2. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Give it more time. Obviously the big three countries will get the most content, but I suspect every now and then another French route will drop in. A TSW version of the Strasbourg to Karlsruhe route recently released for TS would be a strong contender, especially as it offers both French and German content in the same route.
     
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  3. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Probably because LGV didn't sell much, but with it being just two station and one train, I am not surprised.
     
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  4. Thorgred

    Thorgred Active Member

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    3 stations not 2
     
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  5. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Oh well, then it's definitely worth 30€ :|
     
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  6. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Personally I'd love to see the Rhones-Alpes extension and the TGV Reseau, although the former comes under the issue with route extensions. Since the Marseille section is one of the most marketable routes on the LGV network (and possibly France entirely) it doesn't need much thought to see why they'd remake it for TSW... Even if the remake looks worse than the original.
    Actually, the LGV routes are made solely because they sell well - that's why DTG went to the effort of making the signaling systems and scenery assets. I'd like to see proof that they don't sell well.
     
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  7. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I don't think we will see more french content from DTG.

    First, as fabristunt said, that DLC does not seem to be very popular. Possible causes are the low number of stations, and that scenery wasn't that great (a problem shared with SEHS that was developed at the same time). Keep in mind that this was the first (and I think only) 300+ Km/h route in TSW, so the scenery assets were made a bit lighter so they could be loaded fast and not have constant stutter while driving the train.
    I have to say that the TGV itself is awesome, with excellent sounds and lots of realistic, working controls in the cab but that probably is not easy to transmit to the consumer in the Steam page with just some text and pictures.

    Another handicap is that I think KVB is probably not fully implemented in the game, as the real thing has many different warnings but I have only seen the "00" and "000" states (meaning slow down to stop) in the display in-game, and it only shows the warning and never the enforce state. This happens in both routes, LGV and SEHS. Might be a coincidence, but I don't think so at this time.

    Last, I want to mention that it seems DTG is shifting towards specialized teams for each of the 3 main zones (US, UK, DE). That leaves France (and many other countries) in nobody's land.

    So, if you ask me, I think if we are going to see another french route it will probably come from a 3rd party.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2022
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  8. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    The cross-border segment for that is Appenweier-Strasbourg Railway which is where the Rhine River Bridge marks end KVB 25kv 50hz PZB 15KV 16.7HZ. Freight locomotive a DB BR185.0 which has the correct French and swiss Pantograph. Own Riesa-Dresden or Rhein-Ruhr Osten with an ÖBB route you get the 185.5 Nightjet coaches EN467/468 Wien Hbf to Paris Est. You need to drop the 185.5 at Karlsruhe Hbf for DB BR182 ÖBB1116 1016 to Wien Hbf via Hauptstrecke München-Augsburg.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2022
  9. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Also, LGV is very much a one-trick pony. Drive a Duplex fast as hell from one end to the other. Lather, rinse, repeat. That's it. That's all there is to do. There isn't even any other traffic. And that of course has nothing to do with it being French. Had SKA been released with just the ICE 3M and no other trains, or, say HS1 from St Pancras to Folkestone with the Javelin alone, and none of the Kent local services, the response I think would have been similar.
     
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  10. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh sncf lgv routes in do have a following in ts but they are also long.The problem with the lgv route in tsw2 is that it's way too short. Services are only 30 minutes with one train and 3 stations. It's frankly overpriced at $30 and I didn't buy it for that exact reason. I wouldn't be surprised if the lgv route in tsw2 didn't sell well because of how short it is
     
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  11. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    LGV is far from unpopular, in the 2021 end of year Q&A stream they showed the 10 most played routes in 2021, and LGV was the 9th most played route overall.

    The most notable thing to me is that it's above every US route in popularity except Sand Patch. which considering it's included in TSW2 is hardly surprising. If DTG feel that the US is worth making content for regularly then honestly I have to wonder why DTG haven't gotten at least one more French route in the pipeline since then, or even just a loco DLC. Hell, Peninsula Corridor was number 10 on that list, and it got two loco DLCs within half a year of release.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2022
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  12. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    At some point Matt confirmed that LGV is an exception to this rule for the simple reason that everyone knows the TGV (thus promising a lot of profit). While not impossible, I’d very surprised if DTG made another French route in the foreseeable future.
     
  13. rabid

    rabid Well-Known Member

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    I’m pretty sure that if DtG did French route in similar vein to GWE, with loco hauled expresses, multiple units on local, some freight services, it would be very popular. I think the problem is more due to the language barrier, and them not knowing Francophone developers who know the stock and systems intimately. Look at TS1, the lack of DtG French routes there has to be for the same reason.
     
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  14. phillip.good

    phillip.good Active Member

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    I have a theory o this route.

    there are a few things that it tests before they were integrated into later routes; high speed frame rate, auto generated scenery and the safety systems to name 3.

    part of me wonders if LGV was built as a test bed for future techniques and then ‘tarted up’ to a passable release level.

    it’s a shame as I am quite fond of it and would defo buy French content over more and more US freight
     
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  15. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I would love a proper french route with normal french trains.

    I used to have a french train as my first model train when I was a kid. Of coures I didn't know it was a french train back then, also I don't know the exact model, but if my memory serves me correct, it was similar looking to this one.
    [​IMG]

    Though I suppose they would choose something more modern if they were to make more french trains, which is a shame, as these older trains are always more recognizable and iconic. But even with a modern stock, a proper french route with usual passenger and freight trains would be great!
     
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  16. rabid

    rabid Well-Known Member

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    The BB67000 and especially the CC72000 diesels are absolute beasts, - Mes Seigneurs ! :)
     
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  17. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Well, in TS DTG made a few french routes and developed more than just the Duplex. I think over the next few years, we will see at least one more LGV-route as well as one new TGV. Probably the TGV Réseau. But it won't be likely that they release one french route a year. Maybe every 2 years.
    Maybe their latest TS route Straßbourg to Karlsruhe could be a future TSW route. I mean they annouced DRA shorly after they released DRA for TS. And with Straßbourg Karlsruhe, we could have the best of both worlds - the TGV. An ICE3M with working french safety system. And some kind of regional/freight stuff.
     
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  18. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think that’s a fair comparison really, the other routes you mention have opportunities for other services, whereas the LGV is purpose built for the TGV alone.

    When SEHS’ route was announced one of the biggest complaints was the fact that it didn’t run on HS1 for any significant length, again, another railway that is purpose built and only runs 2 trains, still more than the LGV, but realistically this would of meant for TSW, it would only have the 395.

    What the LGV DLC set out to do, it achieved, take away the scenery issues, it’s a very good “run a TGV at the highest speed available in TSW”. Can’t really ask for more from it than that. I would also add that the Duplex is one of the very best units that DTG have produced, it looks stunning, sounds incredible, and it’s a shame that it’s overlooked by the choice of route. That being said, I think all of our Highspeed trains deserve their own tailored route, as opposed to their mixed commuter corridor settings.

    What I do think is that DTG absolutely should not be gauging the interest of a new country, from very specific DLC’s, not that we know that’s what’s happened here.
     
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  19. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    This! The TGV is one of DTG's most well done trains (if you don't count the locos, where TSG was 2nd party).
     
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  20. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Same here, it was a Mehano starter set with three coaches and a yellow car transporter.
     
  21. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I think that was it! I think it's this one here. Though the passenger coach is not familiar, but I'm pretty sure it was this locomotive (I remember it being 6 axle) and I can clearly remember that car transporter and well car (though my well car came with wooden beams, I believe).
    [​IMG]

    Not clearly I'm not expecting to relive my first childhood train set in TSW with this exact set, but something similar I could very easily get behind. Any of the older SNCF locomotives would be great, someting different from all the modern european Traxx locomotives.

    I mean you could do a good mixed route with just 3 new rolling stock: one mixed purpose loco, one passenger car and one freight car. Surely it's not more effort than making an EMU, that will usually also consist of at least 2 or 3 type of cars. They already have an SNCF licence and from what they've told us, working with SNCF is good, as they give you a bunch of info and resources. I would buy it in a heartbeat, lol
     
  22. rabid

    rabid Well-Known Member

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  23. yorkshirbahn#3503

    yorkshirbahn#3503 New Member

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    another LGV route and/or TGV would be great. I only got into TSW at the "Festival of Rail" sale on steam recently, I bought the LGV pack purely on the strength of the fact it was a high speed train, I knew next to nothing about the route in terms of gameplay other than it would be fast, sure I don't think I could play a lot of it in one sitting, but it is a nice palette cleanser if I've been running commutes and freight, and yes I probably wouldn't have paid full price for it given that next to other offerings it seemed to be asking the same price for less content (also being a Yorkshireman I'm legally required to exclaim "ow much!" before any purchase) but I do enjoy the route and would buy another if it was priced accordingly against other routes for content similar to LGV Med, or it contained similar content levels to other routes I'd pay the same as them.
    Outside of LGV/TGV I don't know huge amounts about French rail generally but if they were to offer similar content levels to other routes then I'm not against purchasing them, variety is the spice of life as they say.
     
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  24. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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  25. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I think the answer is that LGV is not really a French route. The only French part is between Aix-en-Provence and Marseille. It's just a generic European High Speed route after that.

    TVM was used in SEHS as well, and we haven't really seen French signalling, or PIS, or anything particularly related to France's rail system.

    However I still think it's likely we will see another French route, this speculation is caused by the fact that they actually completed the Crocodile safety system development, however I think it will just be another LGV, sadly. I'm guessing they are waiting until their autogen tool gets good enough, to allow for even longer routes without having the frankly lacking scenery present between Aix-en-Provence and Avignon.

    Another problem might be the possibily of SNCF being a difficult operator to work with, but at this point is just wild speculation, so I don't want to comment on that.

    For new routes they have the chance to recycle both the ICE3M and the TGV to introduce the Euroduplex and German-bound services on LGV Nord, with possibilities for brand new trains like the TGV POS, so I can't see why they wouldn't do more, especially since apparently LGV sold well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2022
  26. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Well to be honest, quiteba few signals are present andnfunctional near marseille, perhaps not the full range of French signals, but a good start for a French signal toolkit. And PIS is present and fully functional at all stations, I believe those screens are the same across most of France, so again, a good start.

    Perhaps I'm overestimating the importance of these things, but Ibreally feel like there's already a good base for a French toolkit.
     
  27. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    There is a good base, but I don't think it's fully developed in case you want a brand new traditional french route. Likely good enough for another LGV though.
     
  28. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Are you thinking of Strasbourg Appenweier Karlsruhe Railway? Because that route permits the operation of MRCE BR185.5 on SNCF 25kv 50hz overhead contact system. Since SNCF uses BR185.5 for Nightjet Paris Est Karlsruhe trips via Strasbourg
     
  29. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Same loco and yellow car transporter. Same colored cars too!
    As for the coaches, I had three. The blue one of your picture, a red one and a green one. I still have that stuff, but the loco is a parts loco now. It doesn't fit the 60s German layout I am building.
    This set also had a nice map of europe with many landmarks that I used to place under the tracks. Loved it.
    If this loco were to come out for TSW, I'd kinda have to buy it.
     
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  30. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    There's a Laaers 560 attached to the train set. That means DTG can experiment combining the two together end result is a Motorail train out of Paris Bercy to Narbonne and the French Mediterranean Coast. That can open the possibilities of introducing Motorail trains on European routes one of these is a Narbonne Strasbourg Appenweier Karlsruhe Mannheim splits up there for Frankfurt Am Main (Neu Isenberg) & Düsseldorf Hbf via Mainz Koblenz.
     
  31. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Id prefer something like Toulon to Cannes where TGVs run along with TER services for some variety. plus some of the scenary along the French Riveria could look amazing in TSW
     
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  32. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes! Remember having one from Clermont Ferrand to Nimes down the Cevenol, also I think from Amiens to Calais Maritime pre Eurostar/Chunnel era.
     
  33. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    It is the same length and was a similar price to the TS original, which later got the Rhones-Alpes extension which would significantly improve the route if it was added to TSW.
     
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