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Why I'm Annoyed With Dovetail Games And Their Business Practices

Discussion in 'Route Suggestions & Proposals' started by tallboy7648, May 7, 2020.

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  1. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    I'm getting pretty annoyed with Dovetail Games at the moment, I recently bought the new Hauptstrecke Rhein-Rhur route. $30 was how much it costs. I like some of the German routes in tsw but here is a continuous problem. DTG continues to make and make new routes that do not go the full distance Line S1 in the Hauptstrecke Rhein-Rhur route in real life goes from Soligen to Dortmund, but for some stupid reason, we can only go from Duisburg to Bochum. 23 miles. Not to mention that some parts are incorrectly modelled. This has got to stop Dovetail. People are getting tired of you guys releasing new routes that don't go the full distance. Your business practices by charging $30 for routes is similar to EA. Look, I know it takes a long time to make routes and you have to model the trains and scenery. But this is getting annoying. For future DLC and for people who are asking for new routes, tell Dovetail to make routes that go to the actual destinations in real life. I know they don't want to extend routes at the moment (although I would prefer that at this point) but they need to make routes that go the full distance. They have to stop making routes that don't go the full distance like Hauptstrecke Rhein-Rhur because it's getting annoying and all the negative reviews of that route and some others is that it's too short. Most of your tsw dlc's are not worth $30 and most of the time, your just driving the train. You don't really pay attention to every single detail in a route. DTG, get the god forsaken message. Stop making new DLCs that don't go the full distance. It's annoying and my message to people asking dovetail for new routes, tell them to make new DLCs that go the full distance and to change their business practices. Either make new DLCs go the full distance or don't make them at all. I would like a response from Dovetail and I would like people in the community to respond to this fourm please. Thank you
     
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  2. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Woah there, calm down. Repeating this again isn’t going to make a difference. Yes, some routes are too short, but you want all routes to go the full distance. That’s not possible, as some routes are very long, and if you think $30 is a lot to pay for a route imagine how much a route six times as long would cost. The production costs would be six times as much, so the price of the route would be, guess what, six times as much. Would you pay $180 for a route? Or $600? No, and neither would many other people. It wouldn’t sell and the result would be no TSW. There are people out there who have model train sets who will pay that much for one locomotive, but that’s a different story.

    You want all the scenery to be exactly like the real scenery as well. That’s not practical due to the time it takes and the custom scenery models they would have to make. If they did make lots more custom models and added full accurate scenery, guess what, more expensive routes. They have done a great job on most routes so far and it’s all fairly well detailed.

    NB An “actual destination” is anywhere that someone wants to go, not necessarily the end of the line.

    There is some good news though. Dovetail Games have a less graphically detailed train simulator called, let me think, oh yeah Train Simulator where the routes are longer and busier and have different features. There are many more routes and trains for it made by lots of different people and there are some bargains out there for it. The scenery might not always be as good as TSW but lots of people really like it. You could get that. It’s only on PC though, so you’ll be out of luck if you only play on consoles like me.

    Lastly, nobody is forcing you to buy anything. If you don’t like it, or the price of it, don’t buy it. Train simming is not a cheap hobby. Coming on here and repeatedly having a meltdown about it is not going to change anything. Dovetail might listen to reasoned argument but not the shouty ramblings you’re posting (in the route suggestions area of the forum, I might add). You are best not getting so angry about it, think of your blood pressure.

    You wanted a response from the community, that was mine. I sincerely hope it helps you.

    PS If you would like a particular route, then post a route suggestion in this forum.
     
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  3. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    What's the point of putting a suggestion if only there just gonna make it short. I play Train Simulator and some of the routes go to the end destination and are detailed as well. It's like tsw has just better graphics. I don't like when the timetable puts two terminus and they actually go further. It's like DTG trick people to buy these short routes. Stujoy, why are you defending Dovetail games? Do you read the steam reviews. Most of the cons and negative reviews of the routes are that there too short. Some YouTubers complain about how short the routes are in tsw. Hell, in the LIRR route, they could have easily added the Huntington Branch because after Hicksville, the line splits and from Hicksville to Huntington, that would only be three additional stations which could easily been added. The distance between Hicksville to Ronkonkoma is an additional 23 miles and 7 stations which would have made the Long Island Railroad route 48.5 miles if they added the full line which isn't long. I've played some routes in Train Simulator that are long, go to the destination in real life, detailed and sell for a good price under $40. So no, pricing wouldn't be an issue. TS just doesn't have as good graphics as tsw. I'd advise you to read reviews of routes and you will find that the same complaints about how the routes are short and how people are calling for extensions. Watch a video review on some routes and you will find the same complaint about how the routes are short and people are calling for extensions. Watch the official Train Simulator streams, I see more than one person complain about how the routes are short and are getting fed up with this business practice and want change. Stop defending Dovetail because it seems you are fine with whatever they release and you just don't care. I care which is why I posted this to give a suggestion and to hopefully have dovetail change their ways. They can make routes that go to the full destination in real life (doesn't have to be long but still can go to the full destination) at a low price. It's just another excuse as always. Stop defending Dovetail for christ's sake.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
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  4. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    Oh and the actual destination of a line would be like for example The Hammersmith And City line from Hammersmith to Barking. If you start at the starting point of the line which would be Hammersmith, the last stop of the line, the end destination would be Barking so I hope you understand what I mean by start and end destination in real life stujoy. Quit defending Dovetail. I'm pretty sure they be happy to hire you. Oh and Ditrimi said it 100% possible to make extensions and to make new routes that go to the end destination in real life so I don't understand why you're saying that it's impossible for them to do so.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
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  5. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    You have to make realistic suggestions. A 200 mile route isn’t likely to be made. A 40 mile section of a longer real life route will stand a chance. The TSW route selection process will be focused on getting the most playable variety out of the limited amount of route length they can make within their budget. Some recent routes, RRO, HRR, ECW, have included a branch line or two alternative routes between end points. The longest run might only be 25 miles or so but the actual included track mileage is longer. That type of route isn’t to everyone’s liking of course and many would prefer all the mileage was end to end and longer in total than those recent routes. A lot of people do want very long routes but they are setting themselves up for disappointment every time a route is released.

    I suspect in the future longer routes will be made but I’m thinking not much longer than the longest routes we currently have, and just a few will be long. Like it or not it’s how TSW is and until the development team can find ways of streamlining the route building methods and/or improve the tech to allow quicker route building that’s the way it will stay. The game needs to be profitable.
     
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  6. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    I was just making a suggestion for future DLCs that they make to allow us to start at where the line starts in real life and end where the line ends in real life. Hauptstrecke Rhein-Rhur doesn't even make us start or end at the stations they start at in real life. I mean the Long Island Railroad Ronkonkoma branch thats currently in tsw in real life is 48.5 miles which isn't long but we can only go to Hicksville. The port Washington branch is 18.5 miles but we can only go to Woodside. I read the reviews and people are fed up with this nonsense. The Train Simulator streams as well. People want change because it's annoying. It's like all tsw routes will just continue to be short and not go the full distance. It doesn't have to be 200 miles. But if the route is only like 50 miles in real life, but we only get 23, it's absurd especially at the price.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
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  7. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    One thing I would say is that whilst I understand that that they won’t make a long route in one DLC, there should be a strategy as to expanding the route in the near future. This would make players happy and would also be incentive for the developer because they can sell each extension as a separate DLC. If we’re only going to ever get 50mile max routes, we can pretty much forget about any proper intercity or high speed routes if they won’t expand it.

    A good example is the GWE route. Paddington to Reading is nowhere near enough to enjoy a HST. There should be a strategy to develop the route further West.
    I’m sure over the next few years, we’re going to see the East Coast Mainline, West Coast Mainline and Midland Mainline. There has to be a strategy because if we’re just going to get Euston to Milton Keynes, for example, whilst that may be ok for the commuter services, it will be nowhere near enough for the intercity services. Even the shortest intercity routes are 110-130 miles such as Paddington to Bristol, St Pancras to Nottingham, Euston to Birmingham, etc... which could potentially be done in 2 DLCs. Let’s not even think about the big routes such as Paddington to Penzance, Euston/Kings Cross to Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Scotland which are several hundreds of miles long.
     
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  8. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you mean. It’s physically possible to make long routes in their entirety, but the price would be out of your reach when they release it. That’s why they make shorter sections. You don’t have to go all the way to get enjoyment out of driving trains in a simulator.

    It costs money to make the routes. That gets passed on to the consumer. I’m not saying it’s impossible to make longer routes but I am saying that nobody would pay what it would cost to make really long routes. It’s not difficult to understand. I’m not defending everything DTG do and every decision they make, but there are reasons for the short length of the routes. That’s what I’m trying to get across to you. And in the future some routes may be extended right to the end of the line.
     
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  9. MrbKlegend89

    MrbKlegend89 Member

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    I understand the frustration and all, I know I'm one of em that ranted bout LIRR needing updates and me if the dlc wouldve came out with a full Port Washington Branch(or even cut back to Great Neck), Huntington or even to Farmingdale if they couldnt go further to Ronkonkoma I wouldve been fine with that but yea only to Hicksville and that goofy shuttle run between Penn and Woodside tracks 1/2 but even the HRR and RRO dlcs too short.no offense I say it again DTG didnt really do their homework on LIRR and like u said ppl are complaining on other DLCS too...I hope as well they make an extension to LIRR or as well GWR, maybe HRR or RRO or other dlcs in the near future, but again who knows...on the other hand it does take time to build these route..as far as money to build these routes, I'm not familiar like that of how it goes.IM as well trying to hang in there giving more chances even with the upcoming M3, my hopes feel low when that comes out....what we also who are upset at this are saying, we want improvements as well and we doing our best rooting for DTG to hear us out...again we will see in the future how this would turn out..
     
  10. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    You know I find it a shame that no members of Dovetail takes the time to respond to these fourms. I hope they know people are growing more and more frustrated. It's cool that people want new Routes, but tsw has a ton of core problems such as passengers which haven't been addressed in three years, train lighting issues and what have you. It's also annoying that they release routes that are short. I understand it takes a long time to make routes but you think Dovetail would have found a solution to this problem by now. They've shown that their capable of making routes that go to the full destination, but Everytime a new dlc is released,. it's just the same short route. This has got to stop.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
  11. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    There is a way to make routes that are example 48 miles or longer and charge a good price. I think DTG really needs third party support because I mean the dissatisfaction is real
     
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  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    I hope we get extensions as well
     
  13. fabdiva

    fabdiva Active Member

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    As I understand it the extra detail in TSW means it takes 2-3 times longer to produce a km of route compared with TS Classic. So if there is a desire to keep things at the £24.99 price point (for full price, I suspect a large chunk of sales will be during sales, I know I will wait for a sale for most things) then length or detail needs to be sacrificed. Given the community complain enough about £24.99 already being 'too high' a price rise is obviously not going to go down well. The other option is to reduce detail, but again that isn't going to go down well and you end up losing community goodwill with things like the awful BR648 (if you've driven that abomination then you'll know what I mean)

    I know some third party developers have concerns about the production cost per km, to the extent that some are not planning to develop for TSW as they don't see a way for it to be viable at a price point the community will accept.

    Finally I suspect there won't be much DTG activity or forum monitoring today, it's a public holiday here in the UK
     
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  14. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    You're complaining about short routes that have a lot of issues. Imagine the issues that would be present in longer routes. Longer routes mean it will cost more and possibly have more bugs? No thank you.
     
  15. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    That is the answer to your problem. Play the longer routes on Train Simulator. For what is important to you, going the full distance, the poorer graphics will be a fair sacrifice. It’s delightfully simple.
     
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  16. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    Look it seems like you just don't care which is fine Stujoy. You must really like short routes. Good thing this is also a proposals forum as well so we can make further suggestions.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
  17. jerome9987

    jerome9987 New Member

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    The last long route TSW had was Peninsula Corridor that was 47 mile so its defiantly possible for them to those length routes
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
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  18. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    I mean the long island railroad route from Penn to Ronkonkoma in real life is 48.5 miles. It's not 200 miles. Peninsula Corridor is 47 miles. Dovetail just needs to make routes that will allow the player to start at the starting destination in real life and end at the end destination in real life. Doesn't have to be long at all.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
  19. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    Exactly, the Long Island Railroad route from New York Penn to Ronkonkoma in real life is 48.5 miles. From Hicksville to Ronkonkoma is an additional 23.5 miles with 7 stations. So it is possible to make full length routes that don't have to be like 300 miles, but hey you got people defending Dovetail's practices. This is getting out of hand and it has to stop.
     
  20. jerome9987

    jerome9987 New Member

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    Yep i agree that TSW should start doing 40 Mile minimum routes, a route i'd like to see is
    Miami - West Palm Beach featuring the trains Amtrak P42DC locomotive with Silver Star passenger cars, Dash 8-40CW locomotive in CSX Livery & Locomotive BL36PH
     
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  21. mrchuck

    mrchuck Well-Known Member

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    maybe a 3rd party group will build the route further to ronkonkoma sometime soon.
     
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  22. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    Hopefully
     
  23. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    Are you gonna tell everybody else who complains about route length to play Train Simulator. These complaints are justified
     
  24. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I’m not telling anybody anything, just suggesting a product that is more suited to your needs. I would make similar suggestions to someone who was not happy with a particular model of microwave oven, if I knew of one which which would cook the particular food they like more to their satisfaction.

    I do care a great deal. I care more than you do. That is quite evident by the time I put in here on the forum helping people instead of just complaining. I complain when necessary, advise when I can and offer thoughtful, intelligent, considered opinion based on more than my own need to be heard. I can sometimes be annoying at times too, but that’s just a side salad not the main meal.
     
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  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    So basically your suggesting people people who are tired of short routes to just play Train Simulator. That sounds wrong. I guess you like the short routes
     
  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    "This product doesn't do what you would like it to, try another product". Reasonable in the circumstance.
    The producers of TSW have shown that they're not going to make longer routes.
    Moaning, complaining, making posts here, or anywhere else, doesn't seem to have an effect...
    That's the reality of it as it stands
     
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  27. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    By gum, I think he’s got it. People people rejoice. A train simulator with long routes for people people who like long routes.

    Stand down people people, he hasn’t got it after all.

    I like TSW. It’s a different kind of simulator to the others, with a different focus. If all simulators were the same, then the only choice people would have is between what routes were made for each and how it looks on the screen. But for some reason, people want every simulator to have the same routes, the same features, the same ethos. I don’t see the point of that. If DTG had discontinued Train Simulator and only developed for TSW then the complaints about what it lacks would have much more weight. They haven’t done that. They have two products, each with different focuses. TSW is far from being a bad product.

    Longer routes would be a great addition to TSW and would make it more appealing to players who insist route length is the most important thing. Nobody else is making a simulator that can be used on consoles and has the level of detail and driver/train interaction that TSW has. Because of the much longer development time per mile for TSW, long routes just aren’t the focus. Other train simulators, one of which is made by DTG, have longer routes, so there is a choice. TSW is still fairly new and is improving constantly. One day it might be perfect. It isn’t yet, but neither are any other train simulators.

    I’m retiring from this thread now to go and reflect on the poor decisions I made when buying what turned out to be, quite frankly, a terrible microwave oven.
     
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  28. Louis-MTA NYCTA

    Louis-MTA NYCTA Active Member

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    The TSW Peninsula Corridor route showed to us that DTG is capable of making a fairly long & detailed amazing route. In my opinion and others as well the Peninsula Corridor route is one of if not the best route add on. DTG actually went to California to document and understand the trains/rails for Peninsula Corridor. The route is amazing and the route got a lot of positive reviews. All in all DTG are capable of this but you must take into account what stujoy said with the various issues with production of the routes and making a fair agreement with the consumers. Overall I'm neutral with DTG but I understand and can see the frustration with people. But (Generally speaking) complaining/ranting about it is not going to fix the issues. I know how annoying it is to play TSW with short routes but let's all be grateful with what we have instead of just being greedy and asking for more (which is fairly hard to do production wise). Just think about how much money DTG puts into TSW 2020. Only to get a fraction of the price back. All i'm saying is I think DTG is trying their best to make reasonable prices with the community.
     
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  29. mrchuck

    mrchuck Well-Known Member

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    3 additional stations would definitely be easy to create for a additional add on to the lirr in the future maybe it could go to Huntington and then onto port Jefferson if they do a Dlc for the Dual mode diesel locomotives.
     
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  30. Louis-MTA NYCTA

    Louis-MTA NYCTA Active Member

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    This is the first/last time I will be here on this thread I hope you enjoyed and took into consideration my opinion of longer routes and the issues surrounding it.
     
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  31. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    Hopefully. They didn't do their homework for the Long Island Railroad
     
  32. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    Just keep in defending Dovetail games. Maybe defend them in the reviews on Steam as well and go tell those players to play Train Simulator
     
  33. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    I hope they do. Matt said there trying to figure out a way to make longer routes in his stream and at a quick good quality pace so I think they got the message finally. I'm not the only one who is frustrated with Dovetail about this by the way
     
  34. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    I hope they just figure out a way to make longer routes because more and more people are going to get frustrated at the routes being shorter.
     
  35. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Did you know how long the route was before you purchased it, had you done any research? If it isn't long enough for the price you paid, why purchase it in the first place?
     
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  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    That's most of the routes in tsw, there all short
     
  37. fabdiva

    fabdiva Active Member

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    I haven't bought TSW yet, purely as it doesn't yet have things that interest me*, but at the same time I can see why they've made some of the choices they have. I think the only way longer routes are going to appear is if the production cost per km can be lowered**. That could be done by lowering the quality but then TSW isn't a step up from TS classic. A price rise will not go down well with the community, so you can see why they've gone for shorter routes.

    * I suspect those will come in time, a variety is probably better in the long run.
    ** This is a big concern of the professional third party content builders as well, if TSW is expensive to build for will they be able to make a living?
     
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  38. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    But people are getting tired of DTG releasing new DLCs that just continue to be short. It's getting people annoyed.
     
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  39. mrchuck

    mrchuck Well-Known Member

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    oh awesome maybe one day they could extend the route to ronkonkoma or Huntington or further east to Port Jefferson because ronkonkoma and Port Jefferson are mentioned on the Lirr 24/7 article and lirr electric workhorse article.
     
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  40. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    Hopefully. It should've gone to Ronkonkoma when it was released tbh
     
  41. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    DTG should probably release how much the development of the routes cost
     
  42. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Why should any company release what it's costs are? You pay what you're willing to pay rather than paying what it costs plus x markup...
     
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  43. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    So we could know how much it costs to make a route. Not to pay for the actual cost of the route but to just know. Ever heard of Transparency
     
  44. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    When I go to tesco and buy something, does it advertise the cost of producing and transporting it? No
    When I buy a car do they advertise their profit margin? No
    When I... I think you get the idea.

    DTG have no onus to tell anyone how much things cost to do any more than other companies do

    Transparency?
    Yes, I agree that it would be good if they would say outright if the editor is being worked on for public release. Not why or how long, just if
    Would it be good if they would actively poll the community on one route per year to be made so we know we're getting SOMETHING chosen by us? yes
    But I don't need to know their cost / margin / overhead or anything else.
     
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  45. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    That's your opinion, I would assume others would disagree
     
  46. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    OK, I said I wasn’t going to post on this thread again, but I’d like to give you a thought exercise for fun.

    Let’s imagine tomorrow DTG release a statement saying it costs £158,000 to develop a route DLC. What can you now do with that figure?
     
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  47. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    Wait hold on. 110 mile routes in ts20 cost like $39.99, which is just a $10 increase, not that much of a big deal.
     
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  48. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Active Member

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    It's not a big deal and the price would be justified since it's a long route. So I don't understand why they say route Extensions would cost more on tsw. Seriously DTG
     
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  49. fabdiva

    fabdiva Active Member

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    Because TSW has a lot more detail, therefore takes longer to produce a km of route then TS Classic, which means it costs more to make content for. As I've said I suspect the reason is budget and whether they can recoup the production costs from expected sales. Given how much people are invested in TS classic it'll probably take a while for player numbers to increase to the point where increased sales cover the cost of longer routes. It took years for many to transition from MSTS to Railworks, and also from FS2004 to FSX so this isn't a new thing. I suspect the strategy is to try and get a varied range of content out as a priority so as to encourage more players to switch, once they've grown the player base then there is a better chance of more ambitious routes being viable.

    So the options are...
    • Shorter Routes
    • Lower detail
    • Raise Price.
    Shorter routes is probably the least worst option at the moment, but obviously all three will get them crucified by the community. At least DTG haven't gone down the Microtransactions and Lootbox route like the AAA publishers.
     
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  50. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't expect an answer!
     
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