Why I'm Annoyed With Dovetail Games And Their Business Practices

Inside the DTG building, or currently inside lots of houses, there will be a mixture of people all doing what they are great at. Most of them will be very passionate about what they do. Those people are the producers, the artists, the sound team, the researchers, route builders etc. There will be people who are maybe less passionate but still take pride in their job, admin staff, sales people, support staff, cleaners, all manner of important work. Then there will be the people who might cry themselves to sleep each night, seriously questioning the choices they made in life. Those people are called accountants, and they pop up in every company, stifling the passionate and the proud but keeping the company running and the investors happy. At the very top there is the big boss, who has to juggle all this and keep the company running and balance the need for a popular good quality product and a viable business. This means he will have to listen to the accountants as much as the producers and that is why some things aren’t perfect. You also have to remember that without this chap and his vision there would be no DTG, no TS, no TSW, no whatever those fish things are called. Is that what you want?

If the company existed purely to make money, they would be doing something a lot more mundane than making train simulators.

 

for example matt really loves his job & like's to create these thing's but he isn't in charge of sales or anything.Like stujoy said some people at dtg don't like there jobs but some do & some people do it for money

 

I agree with this I think the routes are a bit over priced. Even for train simulator the routes are over priced. Or an add-on with 1 loco and 2 scenarios is $20 it is a bit dumb!

 

The difference between ts and tsw is that on ts they actually added things like editor on ts, which were promised to us in tsw.

 

As far as I'm concerned EA and DTG might aswell be the same company. They act like the same company.

 

I personally like the User Interface in Train Sim World a lot better. I remember playing Train Simulator I would try to use the components inside to locomotives only the little hand would come up I’d go to move it but it never worked. So there is a big difference in at least some aspects of the game. Maybe a scenario maker for the steam workshop. I do wish there would be a free-roam and a locomotive builder remember that where you could take any locomotives and any rail cars and combine them. For example I would make a passenger train using SP & UP. Oh the good ole days. Just do those 3 things and I would probably play the game so much more. Personally if I had to pay $1 to get those three things (for TSW) I would be the first person to pay.

 

I'm new to this fourm even though I had tsw for a few months. I was gonna ask for a London Underground route, preferably the Victoria Line, but then I read this and took a minute to think about what tsw and dtg has been doing with the game. Here is my thoughts.

I own ts2020 and I love that game. I like how the game looks and the length of routes. Now I read this and I could agree with everyone. Now in terms of the LIRR. I live in Manhattan but I take the LIRR often because I have family in Hempstead. The m3 sounds innacurate except for the bell which is a joke in my opinion for a company who advertises tsw as a realistic simulator which realistic sounds and routes. Tallboy is correct when he says the LIRR route is modelled innacurately including Penn Station which I still think is a joke. Now in terms of the bugs, I think it's a joke that dtg hasn't bothered fixing the bugs. People pay money for these routes and for something like the LIRR tunnel glitch not being fixed in I've heard a year is unacceptable and dtg needs to be held accountable. If this was another company these bugs which I do experience myself as well would be fixed by now. Route length is tricky. Let's talk the Rhein-Rhur Osten Route as an example. I got that route on a sale actually and I'm kinda glad I did. The full RRO route is 17 miles long from Hagen HBF to Wuppertal Stienbeck is 17 miles but the full S8 line from Hagen HBF to Monchengladbach HBF is 60 miles long. Now I understand as to why routes are short because of fidelity and the map's scale compared to tsw is much larger, but the game has been out for almost three years so dtg has to make a strategy to make longer routes because I think to continue to get short routes that are $29.99 are just overpriced and yes they are a business, but I do think that if this was another business, the prices would be much fairer and cheaper because some people have said that they are overpriced and I do agree because the routes are far too short and they lack content. Now someone may say to people who don't seem to not like DTGs business practices to play ts. But then again I think the people who show disatsfaction with DTG are passionate about the game and would like to see drastic changes and improvements. People have said that this is a rant but I think what it did for me was give me a wake up call about dtg and what they are doing which isn't good and that can't be defended. Flight Sim World failed because dtg made that game a cash grab and I saw some reviews of routes like rapid transit which had several bugs and they called that a cash grab. DTG has been known to release things just for a cash grab and yes they are a business, but I think they need to make there customers happy by fixing these issues and speaking to the community instead of releasing new routes and trains just to make more money and I think we as a community need to hold DTG accountable instead of saying what they are doing is ok and perhaps maybe not ask for new routes until these issues are addressed. I think DTG seems to ingore the community instead of fixing the bugs which isn't right. Maybe if we stopped buying Content in tsw, dtg will realize what they are doing and try to fix the issues in the game but hey this is my opinion on this topic. I get both sides but dtg I think is responsible for making the community more and more frustrated with the game. Maybe if people go to the streams and voice their issues and frustrations with the game and they may say put it in the fourms or put a ticket, but it's clear that if you do that, they won't fix the problems or just simply ingore you and I hope that this message and this thread is heard and that dtg will change.

 

I don't get why tsw has so many invisable barries. DTG advertises the game as open world. But in tsw your confined to the stations and tracks. A route like Rhein-Rhur Osten shouln't have all those invisable barriers. There are some parts of the map which you should be able to walk through like a ramp that takes you to the station platform from a crossway in a station but it's blocked. Or you should be able to walk from the Regional Express tracks that have crossroads that are modeled to the S-bahn to walk to the S-bahn. Maybe they'll open up the map more.

 

The more you open up the space for a walk-about, the more work must be done to put in detailed content. This would mean less time for track miles, and you'd get a shorter route for the same development time. You have to draw the line (or raise an invisible barrier).... somewhere.

Personally - I wouldn't mind more walkabout space and details inside buildings... (and less route length). It would be great to be able to see inside workshops and depots, and inside station buildings. And there is scope for more non-driving features with that.... But a heck of a lot of people would not want it at all, and would want more route miles. Some would say that too many route miles have already been sacrificed.

 

I do agree that route miles have been sacrificed. TSW routes are already short anyways so DTG must make a strategy to make longer routes that are full distance like 60 miles or 50 miles. Otherwise the con of any new route as seen in most steam reviews is how the routes are short which should end instead of dtg realeasing new routes that sometimes are full of bugs.

 

Would you like to have an 85 mile route, in TSW... with TSW train models.... in UE..... but... not have the freedom to walk-about.....?

So - you'd start a scenario, and you would be in the cab. You would have a 270 view in the cab, with very slow head-turn. You would never be able to leave the seat. The free-cam in TSW would also get heavily restricted so that you don't wander off to look at too much detail.... because it won't be there. You drive the train and you end the scenario.

Then you could build a longer route with very little substance.... like the 85 miles in Bristol-Exeter on TS1. Is this the sort of experience you are after.....? It is available for you right now - in TS1.

 

Ok telling people to play ts1 because they don't like short routes is not right because the people who play tsw like myself and others are passionate about the game. People who ask for longer routes are passoniate about the game and would just want to see changes which are possible and you can walk around with longer routes, it's not impossible so this whole oh play ts1 needs to stop

 

Seriously, how many accounts does this guy need? I think everyone got the point with the very first one...
Not you, Plastic.

 

"TSW: 2021 could go two ways;

- Introduce new core features to the game
- Release a massive bug fixing update alongside it
or
- Redesign menus and UI
- Mastery updates

I know which one I’d certainly prefer."
-londonmidland

Quoted directly from the Baseless Speculation Thread. We all know what we want, but we also know what we're gonna get.

 

Well if the ceo did, that may explain why dtg makes the decisions they make. I have slight optimsm that dtg may change and make the game better. As they are a business of course they have financial obligations to make to shareholders and they have to I assume maximise profit where they can. Maybe if this was a different company, the prices would be lower but hey if people continue to buy their stuff, they probably will just continue to do what they do. Now if people don't buy their stuff, they may change. I just hope some changes are made because I love the game but I am starting to question the business pratices they are doing. I would love new routes like the London Underground Victoria line but I think DTG does need to fix and address customer complaints of the game along with fixing the bugs in the game.

 

I hope ts 2021 fixes all the bugs in the game, adds more passengers in the game in stations like world of subways 4. Passengers getting off the train when you arrive at the last stop on the train like penn station or hempstead and London Paddition. Get packed trains and not have empty trains instead of ui redesigns. Maybe longer routes as well, I have some optism for the future of tsw

 

I believe you can run London Underground S8 stock on Train Simulator, on the 72 mile long London to Aylesbury route (which costs £25)....:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1107813/Train_Simulator_London_Marylebone__Aylesbury_Route_AddOn/


The S8 LUL stock is only £22.00..... but you do get sparks from the juice rails....:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1147157/Train_Simulator_London_Underground_S8_EMU_AddOn/


So, you can get your long route, and London Underground trains and play them on TS1 (currently £25) - these products were designed by Just Trains - a different company to DTG. If you don't have TS1 then your start-up cost would (currently) be only £72.00 all-in.

 

Actually - I wasn't saying this. I was saying that if you wanted to play longer routes, then you could do this with TS1. It's available right now - if you want it. If you don't want the longer routes in TS1, then you are not compelled to play them.

If you don't like shorter routes in TSW (despite the 3D detail and the "first person immersion" element), then my recommendation would be to not play TSW. Don't do things that cause you angst or if they make you upset.

You are offered choice with TS1 and TSW. You are not offered the "best of both worlds".... not yet... If route design can be heavily automated in future, with better geo datasets and some sort of AI building out the detail, then you might get what you want at the price that you want, in the timescale that you want. Maybe.

There is another solution - which is the solution that I adopt - which is to use TS1 and/or TSW, depending on the mood that I am in.

Regarding cost - don't buy anything in the initial +200% extra premium stage in the first two months of release - wait until the prices are reduced to the normal price for content/DLCs...

 

I mean waiting for sales does take a while and some people want the prices of routes and trains to be dropped because of how short they are and the new trains like the m3 has three scenarios and substitutes services with m7 services which isn't realistic at all. Now the whole play ts1 is something I can understand, I have ts 2020 but not everyone does so saying to people to play train simulator for suggesting that dtg should make longer routes for tsw which dtg can do isn't right. You have to take into account that ts2020 is a PC game and tsw is a console/PC game and not everyone may have a PC or a laptop to play TS2020 who posts on the fourm so I'm not a particular fan of people telling others who want longer routes to play TS2020 for that reason because I feel like people who say that don't take that into account.

 

Okay sorry I understand you now I get the same problem with Mercedes their cars are very expensive and I don't like waiting for sales I want a long Mercedes SLS AMG but they can cost 150000 Euros I mean if Dacia can make a short car that costs 6000 Euros why can't Mercedes do their best cars for 6000 Euros It's just wrong It's no use saying that I should buy the Dacia because I want the Mercedes Mercedes could easily build a car for 6000 Euros that is as nice and long as the 150000 Euros one but they don't and it makes me really very angry No I don't want a Dacia I want a Mercedes I only have 6500 Euros to spend on a car but I want the brand new Mercedes I like the Mercedes and I prefer it to the Dacia I want the Mercedes now I do not want to have to wait until I have 150000 Euros Why can't the guys at Mercedes understand this I do not want to have to wait for a sale Most people want Mercedes to build their cars for 6000 Euros not 150000 Euros How many people will pay 150000 for a car I mean honestly it's disgusting that Mercedes charge so much money for a car when you can build a brand new car for 6000 Euros Not everyone likes Dacias why should people with less than 7000 Euros not be allowed to buy a new Mercedes Why should they have to put up with a Dacia when they want a Mercedes Mercedes is better than Dacia.

In short - I feel your pain.

 

I don't have any pain and I don't know what cars gotta do for any of this. I don't think you get it

 

okay sorry I understand you now I get the same problem with Heljan and their very detailed model trains are very expensive and I don't like waiting for sales I want a large Heljan train set with DCC locos but they can cost £1000 I mean if Hornby Railroad can make a non-DCC basic starter train set that costs only £50 why can't Heljan do their best train sets for £50 as well It's just wrong it's no use saying that I should buy the Hornby Railroad one because I want the Heljan mega-pack with DCC and Heljan could easily build a large detailed DCC train set for £50 that is as nice and detailed as the £1000 one but they don't and it makes me really very angry no I don't want a Hornby Railroad starter set I want Heljan I only have £50 to spend on a model train set but I want the brand new detailed Heljan ones because I like Heljan and I prefer it to Hornby Railroad I want the Heljan one now I do not want to have to wait until I have £1000 why can't the guys at Heljan understand this I do not want to have to wait for a sale most people want Heljan to build their detailed model train sets for £50 not £1000 how many people will pay £1000 for a model train I mean honestly it's disgusting that Heljan charge so much money for a model train when you can build a brand new basic model train set for £50 not everyone likes Hornby Railroad why should people with less than £1000 not be allowed to buy a new detailed DCC Heljan train set why should they have to put up with Hornby Railroad when they want Heljan when Heljan is better than Hornby Railroad.

Am I getting closer to understanding your point now....?

 

This is getting very surreal. I’m imagining the Chuckle Brothers in disguise as Fry & Laurie but their act still mainly consists of “To Me” “To You” so both of their original identities are plain for everyone to see. Although in this case it’s more Fry & Chuckle in the resulting sketch.

 

I'm not here to make jokes. I don't need sales to buy tsw routes. Some people just may not want to wait for sales and some have said they want the prices of routes dropped because they're overpriced. Can't always think single minded

 

I personally think that the regular price for DLCs should be what they cost when they are on sale.

 

I do believe dlcs are overpriced and they may argue that the fidelity is much bigger than tsw and there is more detail. However the routes are too short and they lack scenarios as well so the price is just not justified, it's good to see people finally realize the problems with dtg

 

I agree. The trick is to realise that the "normal price" is the price at -66% or -75% "sales discount"..... and then wait... and buy DLC at that normal lower price. The price at release date is only provided for those that are willing to pay +200% extra, to get DLC a few weeks earlier.

The input variables to control are:

- initial asking price (as high as possible without dissuading absolutely everyone from making a purchase);
- time to wait before setting the price down to normal (as short as possible, but without being so short that you encourage people that were prepared to pay the high initial prices to then wait just a short time for the price to reduce);

The sweet spot for false hyper-discounting varies depending on the product/service. For some reason, with train sim products.... that sweet spot appears to be +200% (or perhaps even +400%) at release and then a two month wait before the price starts floating down to the real price that (I very strongly suspect) most people are prepared to pay (which it reaches after about 12 months).

The initial entirely false price on release is driven by significant numbers of people buying at that high price. They could make a DLC $100 at launch, but the number of people willing to buy it would reduce. More would start to wait, or would never make a purchase at all. So to sustain this initial very high price you would have to make the wait time to price normalisation much longer.... which would hurt cash-flow for the seller.

The only way to bring prices down to "normal" on the release date would be for everyone to boycott the +200% price. The price at release would then reduce to the normal price. But this probably won't happen, because enough people are prepared to pay three or four times the normal price to get DLC slightly earlier - and bizarrely... they do this in the full knowledge that the DLC won't be functional, because nobody will have tested it properly.

There is no point in complaining about the initial price and then paying it anyway - the most effective way to bring the price down is to refuse to pay the initial false price, and then hope that everyone else has the sense to do the same thing.

 

Plastic Pal could you please have a look at me route suggestion and let me know what you think.

 

I agree that if people were to not buy routes, then the prices would drop substantically. It's not worth $30

 

Good idea we somehow get 90% of the buyers to boycott the purchase so we can buy at a lower price.

 

Yeh that's not possible, dtg should just lower the price of the routes

 

It's basic game theory. To get the best result for yourself, you often have to aim to get the best result for the whole group first, and deny yourself your initially perceived best selfish option.

But people are more likely to accept being gamed (and gouged) by the seller, than to co-operate with each other and game the best pricing for everyone.

It's a typically unbalanced power relationship - as the seller has all of the data, and all of the power from the information (including stats on how/when DLCs are used....). So they can determine the sweet spot on pricing/timing and get maximum yield. And this is what any business would do if they have the data.

 

Solution to all these complaints is having an editor so third-parties can develop the routes we want. Sadly it doesn't look like we're going to get one.

 

Yeah. Obviously I didn’t mean it. To do that it would be a real pain in the ass

 

As a business, you can't just refuse to take people's extra cash if they willingly offer it to you. If there are enough people that are prepared to pay +200% or +300% above the reasonable price for a product that you make, then you'd obviously take the extra cash for as long as you can, until all of those people have been fully rinsed, and then you return the price to something vaguely normal and reasonably fair, that the majority are willing to pay.

It's just capitalism. And I think you will find that this makes it perfectly okay.

 

I remember the first pay per view TV sporting event in Britain. People who already paid a subscription to Sky Sports had to pay another £10 to watch a boxing match. I thought at the time that if everyone refused to pay it then they would have to wait one day to see the replay of the fight on the BBC and their tiny sacrifice would nip the controversial paying twice (three times if you include your TV Licence) to watch an event in the bud. But, hey ho, thousands paid the extra tenner to see what turned out to be about 5 minutes of a convicted criminal pulverising a national treasure and that cemented the business model that still goes on today with the likes of Amazon Prime. The moral being that you don’t have to pay the top price for things but many people just can’t help themselves.

 

I do think we need a third party editor for tsw because people who edit and make routes in ts do it out of passion and sometimes it's free, but dtg makes routes and they have passionate people there, however they are a business and since they gotta make an extra buck, the routes in tsw in my opinion are overpriced. I can afford them, however $30 for not driving a long distance, 5 scenarios. $20 for trains with three scenarios and the m3 not adding services which is unrealistic is just silly. They should consider lowering the prices because it's not worth the price but hey at least they're cheaper than TS2020 DLCs that are 6-9 years old that are $39.99

 

I agree that the DLCs are overpriced. I can afford them but there just not worth it due to route length and lack of scenarios. They should at least be minimum $15-$20 for routes and $10 for trains

 

I have paid considerably less, on average, than your proposed minimum..... I have paid something like $10 per route and $8 per loco on TSW, and $3 per route and $2 per loco on TS1.

I can also afford the full initial price. But if I paid +200% for everything in life, then I would rapidly become homeless and destitute, because not many people are currently paying salaries at +200%.

 

You would think that if were currently in a pandemic, they would at least lower the prices as a show of compassion until lockdowns are lifted and people get back to work.Yes they would lose maybe a little bit of cash, but sales cause more people to buy so they could probably make more money. Other companies are doing that and for a company who has made hundereds of thousands of dollars, it would be nice

 

You know what, I’ve changed my mind, you are right. 100% right. I’ll telephone Dovetail immediately and tell them to lower their prices. I’ll tell them to lower the prices to an acceptable level and to then lower them more to show compassion because we are in a pandemic and to have sales more often with proper reductions in price of at least 50% on everything including new releases and for people who still can’t afford those prices to offer them some DLC for free, if they’ve bought the deluxe version of the game in the past. I’ll let you know their answer in due course.

 

Is that sarcasm?

 

Why do you seem to look one sided when it comes to dtg. Do you understand as to why a lot of people are calling for price drops.? It's like you seem to like the prices of short routes and yes you can argue well graphics and fidelity yeh, yeh, yeh classic excuses, but more and more people i've been seeing are saying that it's not worth the prices they charge due to lack of content, lack of scenarios, and route length. People have valid reasons as to why they think routes are overpriced, and they do outweigh the classic excuses at to why the prices are justified

 

They should just give us all the dlc for free, we are obviously so bored and stressed during isolation that we deserve it.
Afterall, businesses work on compassion for the customer.

 

Well free is a bit of a stretch but price dropps in my opinion are justified. Maybe 60%. Routes should be $14-$20 and trains should be $10. Trains should be $10 because some don't add services like the M3 which is unrealistic and they lack scenarios. Routes should be $15-$20 due to route length and the sheer lack of scenarios, along with routes having stations with little to no passengers.

 

Indeed it is. If I really did that though I can guarantee that the answer would be a firm “no” over the phone.

If a suggestion had come for a reduction in prices over the lockdown period from someone who isn’t a serial complainer then I would support it. It is a good idea and may actually increase revenue for the company, everyone’s a winner. But when the suggestion comes from someone who genuinely wants everything for nothing and won’t accept any arguments about why some things are expensive then I find a sarcastic response is required, as informative and balanced responses to this person (people?) just do not work. I really should just stop replying at all, but I actually want these people to understand the pricing structure, the reasons for it, and how to avoid paying a premium by buying when there is one of the many many sales. I’m not the only one who has tried to explain.

 

I get why they cost the way they cost, but do you understand why more and more people are calling for price drops. I'm not the only one stujoy calling for price drops. Please explain why more and more people are calling for price drops?

 

I may appear to be one sided because I try to balance the negativity on the forum and I do genuinely like TSW as a product. When I weigh up all the pros and cons of TSW I come out with the feeling that the pros far outweigh the cons, and the cons get considerable coverage here on the forums. I think I get value for money for what I have spent on TSW and most of what I have purchased is better value because I have bought those DLC in sales. I can tell you that to date I have spent £186 on TSW and have most of the content that I want. Currently I still want HRR route, 182 loco, M3, and 204 shunter. I will get all of them when I see them in a sale, unless newer releases look like better value.

For this £186 I have had daily use since the end of August last year of a great train simulator with my ever growing collection of routes and trains. There is nothing better in my life now than driving the 155 along RSN, and that’s not in a sad way, I’m just loving it. I would like every route and train to be as good as those examples. I won’t list the things that I think need improving in the game because they are all the things everyone knows about and there are some annoying bugs too. With regards to the length of routes, I think they are, with one or two exceptions, long enough for me. That’s not to say I don’t want some longer routes because I would love an ECML or WCML in UK or a really long US freight route with very long trains. But that isn’t the focus of TSW, no matter how many people want it. In years to come long routes may become a reality. Driving a 1 hour passenger service certainly doesn’t seem like half an experience to me, and sometimes I want to drive many shorter services in one sitting.

I watch some streams and videos of TS and I sometimes see cartoon looking trains driving through nothing scenery and I think how much better TSW is and how the positives of it outshine the other train sims in the way it looks and feels to drive trains, compared to what I see in TS vids and what I experienced for a few years using Trainz. It’s a whole new level. And despite the lack of AI trains and passengers on PS4 it is totally immersive and brilliant. I often get the feeling that other people aren’t seeing or feeling this majesty and spend too much time focusing on what TSW isn’t and less on what it is.

That’s where I’m coming from. And despite some shortcomings I think it’s good value for money. Much better value than Trainz was for me and that was including some free DLC.

 

The products sold by DTG do indeed fall within the price window that you desire. What you have described is the standard pricing window, which is available about ten times per year for about a week at a time.

They like to market these standard prices as "discounted" in a "sale" with phrases like "66% off". But according to the law in the UK, if you use phrases like "66% off", then you have to attempt to sell the product at the false "undiscounted" price for a period of time, including when the product is first available.

It's purely a marketing device - one that has got a bit out of control in my opinion...... But... amazingly... some people (in significant enough numbers) will actually pay the +200% above standard price.... so the products float around that price for much longer than they usually would. The only way to stop this from happening is to not buy the products with the additional +200% premium applied.

You do not have to pay the +200% price. The price will drop to the "normal" price at "66% off" fairly quickly, and that price will be well within the range that you want, and that you seem to think is fair (a point which you are quite right about).

I don't know about you, but I would rather have 15 routes for $150 instead of 6 routes for $150. To get three times more routes for the same amount of cash, you just have to wait for a bit for the prices to normalise.

By the way, TSW is a single player train simulator game - it's not FIFA 2021 - you don't have to be absolutely currently up-to-date in order to enjoy the full scope of the software. Indeeed - if you wait - it is more likely to work properly (although that is not guaranteed, as you can see with the Class 47).

 

Aye - the DB BR 155 ......eh..... She's a beauty is she not....? And a year after release, now finally working on PS4.... so that everyone can now enjoy the splendour of tapping whilst being bathed in a warm green glow from the control desk.........! ;-)

If only they would now do something about the Class 47.... preferably before the Class 20 is released...

Hint hint.... ;-D