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Why I'm Worried About Rush Hour

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by aglomarsale, May 24, 2021.

  1. aglomarsale

    aglomarsale Active Member

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    I got very excited when Rush hour got announced (cough cough, leaked) and the route selections are excellent. However, the Rush Hour DLC pack that comes with NEC, LB and RD cost the same that a normal route DLC would.

    This is the problem.

    I'm not telling that DTG should jack up the price, but from what we, the community have seen so far, I am worried.

    TSW2 got 2 brand new routes with a remastered edition of a previously existing route, however limited to PC. And They were great! Bakerloo and Koln Aachen were and still are great routes, and we got those for the same price of Hamburg Lubeck. We got so many new and improved features, trains, systems, etc etc.

    But the DTG now is different from the DTG nearly a year ago. New staff, new systems of communication (roadmap for example) and a lot more have come into the picture. And did these help?

    In most cases, yes. But just take a look at the reviews of the latest route DLCs and there is a trend that is more than transparent.

    Now, to narrow it down- How can we expect three new major routes with more than 6 locos for the same price as one route DLC? If DTG is failing to deliver expected quality to ONE route DLC for 24.99 pounds, how can we expect to see higher quality in these three routes?

    I really want these three routes, but at the current situation, I cant expect them to even touch my lowest expectations.

    Thank you.
     
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  2. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    I get your point. How can they sell three routes for the price of one and keep the same level of quality? That's for DTG to worry about and us to find out I guess. But they'll most likely have a team working each route, but doing so will result in different build quality. Just look at previous routes as evidence.

    I'm going to buy Rush Hour as I like both the Boston to Providence & Brighton to London Victoria lines, the German one is just another route, I might drive it but probably won't as I don't like German content.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
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  3. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    The price has pretty much zero colleration with the quality of the DLC. Whether the routes will be great or a unpolished, buggy mess, has nothing to do with whether they sell them for "3 for the price of 1" or not. These cheap bundles are a pretty widely used marketing strategy, nothing exclusive to DTG.

    While I do agree that their past releases make it a bit difficult to get excited for the new routes, you don't have to worry about the price. They either nail the route or mess it up. But that would happen either they sell them for 30 euros of 90 euros.
     
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  4. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    They have different route building teams.
     
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  5. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I'm totally with you on this, I think only time will tell.

    What puts me on a more positive note is one comment from Sam that keeps coming up: If DTG were to increase the price, it would not increase quality. I hope that this also applies in the other direction, I really hope we do not get another 3 Hamburg-Lubeck routes :)
     
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  6. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately that doesn't mean the quality will be the same on each route.
     
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  7. aglomarsale

    aglomarsale Active Member

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    The problem here isn't price, but the fact that every new DLC varies drastically in quality. Now, it's a bit of a guessing and luck game where we hope the next DLC will be good.
    So many people were exited about Southeastern Highspeed, but most were disappointed. This isn't a great example, but it shows you DTGs unstable approach.
     
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  8. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I'm also worried it won't be perfect.
    Recent reviews are a bad joke. We live in a time when one slip is enough to lower the grade by half. This is not just about TSW. Steam ratings are sabotaged, often maliciously. CRR is outstanding (HMA level), HHL is very good with excellent Timetable. I am worried not only about DTG, but also about the players that they will never be satisfied. On the other hand, although not everyone is overly understanding and it is a very subjective matter how much dissatisfaction should be shown, I am also a doubter :)

    I am afraid that the previously working things will be broken again.
    I'm not afraid, it will be a great package.
     
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  9. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    My take on it is this. DTG are releasing a bundle of routes instead of the big yearly update this year. So instead of a big update to everything in the game with a new title and a bundle of old routes, or new routes, there are two separate things happening. The game gets a smaller update and the core routes stay the same but a release bundle is also available with a better than usual deal than DLC prices. This ensures that the yearly release has a lot of content available for those getting the game for the first time but also a good deal for existing players. It’s more like a repeat of TSW2 release but with no obligation to buy anything.

    One of the reasons they state that there isn’t a big game update this time round is that they want to have more updates throughout the year (a TSW year August to August). This makes sense as there is a game engine upgrade and other big projects like introducing steam to TSW ongoing and trying to cram too much into one update for the sake of it is not a good approach. So there it’s likely that the user interface will stay the same design and other updates will come as and when they are ready to be introduced. It also makes sense that the new passenger system is only included with the Rush Hour routes and not changed for the whole game, as that would be another huge undertaking.

    For the release of TSW2, three routes were made* and released at the same time, alongside a massive update to the whole game and two entirely new tools. That happened fairly smoothly with some good content and only the later introduction of the preserved collection was a rushed job with quality issues, which is still taking a long time to rectify. All releases of DLC have had the normal issues, and as much as people say Hamburg is a broken route, it isn’t as broken as Munich, not from where I am sitting, in front of a PS4. That is the most broken and incomplete route in TSW2 by a long way for most players, but is often held up as the pinnacle of achievements and quality.

    *SPG was revamped and made compatible with consoles, so not quite a fully new route but still a fair amount of work.

    Considering all the above, the biggest fear for me is not the quality of the routes due to there being three of them but the impact of another game engine upgrade. It’s not as big a leap in versions as the one that accompanied TSW2 but it is a change, and that’s when big problems can occur. DTG aren’t going to deliberately release a broken product or poor DLC and they are not trying to do too much in terms of a yearly upgrade to try and ensure that it is good quality when it comes but there will be issues as always and some might be bigger than others. There might not be an increase in quality from the general quality of DLC but I’m certainly hoping a flawed release like Hamburg or Munich doesn’t happen again. Both were bad for different reasons, one for attention to detail and one because it just didn’t work well for most players. TSW has improved a great deal in its ambitions and in most cases still delivers on interesting and playable content.

    The price they are selling the bundle for will have zero impact on the quality of it, just to be clear.
     
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  10. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not sure on this.
    Last few years of TSW and TS1 there has been a new bundle and a core update
    The new bundle has been TW2021 TSW2020 or whatever
    Last year they did the UE update and this required a lot of work so they made it a paid renewal to the game making it TSW2

    This year they don't have to put as much work into the core update (it seems) but there is still a core revision going on, as well as the steam and optimisation investigations ongoing

    So maybe the core upgrade this year wont' have as much impact timewise as the update to TSW2, but I wouldn't say the upgrade to UE4.26 won't have as much impact. I'm hoping it does
     
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  11. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Infact: is certaily is not. There are enough preview streams and Youtubers who upload videos of it. No rush to buy rush hour. You can make up your mind pretty well about a DLC before you buy it.
     
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  12. aglomarsale

    aglomarsale Active Member

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    I meant to say that it's a guessing game as soon the DLC is seen in the roadmap, when it's in production. I understand what you're saying though
     
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  13. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    I think that material that has been previously built will pay for, at least to some extentet, the content included in Rush Hour.
    For example, content delivered with Hamburg Lubeck is almost entirely reused. By reselling this again it allows them to:
    1. Have continuity with releases.
    2. Gain some funds to compensate for the lower price of the 3-in-1 pack that's coming up.

    Let's take the TGV route as an example, it required work to create a lot of new material but if its sales are not high enough to cover its development costs and make a profit too, then they will have to come up with other ways to compensate, such as from routes that will help them to break even by reselling material which makes sense to reappear in new DLCs.
     
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  14. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I think it's impossible to tell the quality of a DTG release by the quality of the last, as there isn't really a clear pattern in quality, with sometimes there being a streak of good routes, followed by one bad one just to return to good ones and the opposite.

    Factor into that that different people look for different things in routes (HMA not having layers on PS4 being a great example, as the route there is boring, but for me on PC is great. HHL is too, with it being great for non-PZB players that like a good timetable, but not having my interest yet due to PZB and some other issues). This means that Rush Hour, or at least a few routes from it, will be great in the eyes of one player, and might be underwhelming for the other.

    All in all we'll have to wait until at least developement blogs, and preferably preview streams before deciding it will be good or bad, and that we have to determine that for ourselves.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
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  15. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure Rush Hour will be above average, probably at release but almost guaranteed in the long run. Lots of people are going to buy it, which means the bugs will be reported more. This will increase the priority to fix them since it will be very clear to DTG that those bugs are disturbing a large portion of their customers.
     
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  16. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I’m sure they’ll want to do their best with this bundle, as it’s has the potential to do very well in sales. A lot more than your standard single DLC release.

    Whilst their recent DLCs have been less than impressive, hopefully they’ve learnt their lesson and will deliver something a bit more up to scratch.
     
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  17. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm certainly not worried about either the upgrade or the new route bundle. Firstly, the upgrade is likely to be rather modest so will have little effect on performance for me, might even improve things somewhat. I suppose I might be a little concerned if I were on console, but those folks are such a big slice of the player base, I think DTG will certainly take that into account. Secondly, the 3 route bundle is something DTG have been doing every year for as long as I can remember with TS20XX and TSW, so nothing new there. As far as quality goes, I have all the TSW2 routes and, despite the well documented bugs, they are all playable and, for the most part, enjoyable for me. Yes, there are some things that "bug" the heck out of me and I've posted about them numerous times. I expect all that to continue with any new DLC. Actually, I find HHL to be very good. The locos and stations are excellent and SIFA works annoyingly well, even if PZB doesn't yet. Lastly, why worry about something that is months away? I'm thinking about more immediate things like Cane Creek, the Scottish route, upcoming loco releases and what tomorrow's Roadmap will bring.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
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  18. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    Hbl was most likely rushed because

    1. It has all reused stock
    2. More effort will be put into RH routes
    3. And finally , there just probably wasn’t enough time with all the RH stuff
    [/QUOTE]
     
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  19. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    This year’s update is different than they have done before. This year there is no new release of the game with a new name and new included routes, such as what happened with TSW2020. The update of user interface and features to TSW2 (which remains as TSW2 and has the same routes as last year) is not going to be as big as when they updated to TSW2020. Last year’s update was a completely different affair, as it released as a new title and everyone who wanted it had to buy it, and can be seen as a one off, but they have not even gone back to the same yearly updates they did before that this time. The bundle is a DLC this time, which is completely different, and the update to the game will be minimal. This is what they have stated in the Rush Hour article and faqs. There is no big update this year. There will be more updates throughout the year instead.
     
  20. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I feel like the reusing of rolling stock (in HHL, DLGW & Rush Hour), might also have to do with steam. I can imagine that for the train artistis learning to create a whole new and very complex locomotive is very difficult, and a lot of time is going into that. Sadly DTG haven't communicated about that, so it's just an assumption.
     
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  21. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    What was this route ? I don’t know how I’ve forgotten
     
  22. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Another possbility is that the existance of a preservation crew means that the threshold for releasing content has been (maybe subconciously?) lowered. They act as a backstop so that things can be released and then it is someone else's problem to fix them up a bit. The attitude of just get it out and then we can make all sorts of vague promises about things that aren't quite there. If you notice it really isn't long after the routes get released that the patches from the dev teams stops and you have to wait for the preservation crew to work on it.

    This is a bit like saying QC was more strict in the days before patches and internet as software had to be right first time, but now we have early access and public beta testing by any other name.
     
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  23. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I think steam is certainly guzzling up vehicle artist resources, although in the case of Hamburg I think it was more misreading the room, or rushing to meet a quota. Given they're hyping this up so early, and it's the main yearly release, I should think they're going to put at least a bit more effort in, and the way Matt was talking about the 387 and Talent 2, it seems they are.
     
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  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Well yes, but the only people that really affects are people new to TSW who may well be able to get two new bundles (one with the core game and then RH itself)
    The remainder is all much of a muchness. They did core updates each year, and bundled some routes. That's pretty much what's happening this year, the only difference is they're not changing the name
     
  25. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I think he means Diesel Legends of the GWML.
     
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  26. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Diesel Legends of Great Western, not a route, but a pack. It used reused content only, the stated reason being that the train and route artists were busy, but the scenario/timetable team not, so it was a project to keep them busy.
     
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  27. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it may have been "off the cuff" so to speak, but actually I've found it to be quite enjoyable, even though the locos were out of context. I'd like to ask DTG whether the pack was a good seller and if they are likely to repeat the experiment, perhaps on a current or future American route.
     
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  28. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    I have high hopes but low expectations so i don't get too disappointed, my main worry is the safety system on the nec since that was unplayable in tsw 2020
     
  29. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand this fantasy idea that 3 routes for the price of 1 will magically have the same standards as previously released routes. It's pretty obvious that this won't be the case, considering some of the more recent routes like Hamburg Lubeck (essentially no new rolling stock other than the 112 which is heavily built on the 143) and the upcoming Cathart Circle (only 1 new loco included) have been trending towards giving us less and less. I am certainly buying Rush Hour because the price is a no brainer, but it's absurd to think that it'll have the same quality as a traditional 30 dollar DTG route. There's a reason why it's priced at 30 dollars and not 50 for example, and expectations should be lowered to reflect that.
     
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  30. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    We may well be getting another loco
     
  31. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, you clearly have no recollection of previous route bundles released with annual updates for TS and TSW. There is, on the contrary, no reason to think that the quality of the upcoming routes will be different from previous ones. It's been said repeatedly that the price of DLC has no bearing on the quality of the product. Do you think SPG, SKA and BKL would have been better if they had been released 6 months apart at $30 each?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
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  32. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Some would say that previously released route's standards were pretty low, so maybe they will

    Personally, with knowledge of the routes they released in previous year's "big releases" they've always been pretty good, but as usual I will wait and see, no hold my breath and not have any expectations going in... GOOD OR BAD
     
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  33. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    You obviously don't know how bundles work. And do you not know about the previous bundle releases?
     
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  34. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    Aren't they also updating Unreal to 4.26? That doesn't sound minimal (and required changes to the preserved collection when TSW 2 was released).
     
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  35. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Has there been any mention of the price officially? Also will the routes be sold separately for (maybe) a lower price?
    Only the BML really interests me and I don't want to have to pay potentially more for stuff I don't want and would seldom use.
    Don't get me wrong, selling 3 routes for (£25) is great, but unless you like other regions you're not really saving money.
     
  36. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Yup, as well as track ir support (OK, that's PC only but still), updated passengers, and updates to controls. Nothing really ;)

    I assume you missed this bit:
    upload_2021-5-24_18-57-6.png
     
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  37. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    upload_2021-5-24_18-57-59.png
    From the FAQ.
    They're describing it as an add-on, so it's probably a single DLC that downloads 3 routes instead of 1 (it would however be useful if you were able to chop and change them in Steam though)
     
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  38. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    They are but that doesn’t change the game or add any features. It may change the look slightly and performance but it will mainly be behind the scenes stuff it will be adding. It’s possibly a big upgrade for DTG but we won’t see it, unlike changes to the HUD or the game UI or a second version of scenario designer, which we would see. I think that’s the difference with this update.
     
  39. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I would like that, as personally I really don't care about the other two routes, only the NEC. But I doubt we will have the option to buy separately.
     
  40. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I somehow missed that :(
    Hopefully the routes will be separate items of DLC on steam so we can install them separately (I wouldn't like to waste memory space on routes I don't use).
     
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  41. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    It's not really the price that's worrying, it's the quality. This worry would apply even if Rush Hour cost three times as much. Just think of it:

    - New core features (engine upgrade, next-gen support, new immersion controls, etc.)
    - Three new routes in one pack
    - 6 (?) locos and different rolling stock in the same pack
    - New tech (like passengers and "rush hour" timetables)

    Just imagine the possibilities of bugs. Gameplay, graphics and design-wise as well. If one route and one or a few locos can have so many issues, what can we expect with such a package? How can we trust that so much content released at the same time will reach the desired quality? This is my worry. From the core update to the various routes, signaling and safety systems, the locos themselves from headlights to gauge lights, modeling, animation, basically anything can go wrong, there are so many variables. How can we tell if it will be worth purchasing, placing our trust in it? This is my dilemma because the content itself is interesting for me but I lost (at least some) confidence. I don't want to wait months or more for the preservation crew to catch up and start fixing what's broken. And even then... we saw what happened with RT and LIRR. :(
     
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  42. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Well-Known Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the update to 4.26 linked to the implementation of steam locos? That's a big feature and change. Albeit I don't think we'll actually see any steam locos till the end of 2021/early 2022
     
  43. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    They have said that the upgrade is needed for steam trains. I don't know why (apparently there's changes to motion blur?).

    They needed to update to 4.26 anyway just to keep it on the most recent version of UE4 so we don't have to go through the jump between TSW1 and TSW2 again.

    Seperate next gen console version?
     
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  44. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    If you're unsure about quality, which is completely understandable, I'd reccomend the following:

    • Don't pre-order (no one is forcing you too, of course you do lose the small discount, but waiting can be worth that)
    • Watch the preview streams, and ask questions on there and afterward on the forums if you're unsure about aspects
    • Watch reviews and gameplay of the route by any TSW youtuber you watch
    • Keep an eye on any issues or good reviews on the forums
    If you've done that, you should get a good image of what the route is like, and what are it's pros and cons. Of course that does mean you have to wait a few days after release before buying, but if you have the patience it's worth it.
     
  45. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    No that’s the bit I did see. In previous years all the major updates would have been done together in the yearly release but this year the only major part of this update is behind the scenes upgrade to 4.26. There are a couple of new features, all of which look minimal to me, and improvements to a couple of existing things. Track IR was supposed have already been done but it’s coming with this upgrade as a ‘new’ feature. There’s no mention of any changes to the HUD or UI and of course no change to the bundled routes or the name. So it is different and not as big an update as usual, and the other upgrades and updates are coming later, rather than with the yearly update. They might call all of them major upgrades but to the player the upgrades in the first release will be minor. I would have thought that players would be expecting massive improvements to the scenario and livery tools, a new map, that kind of thing, this time round, and they may happen during the year, but not with this upgrade.
     
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  46. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    I thought one of the reasons to upgrade Unreal was that it supported some new features DTG is adding?

    Probably a good question to ask on a stream whether Rush Hour is dependent on 4.26 or not.
     
  47. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, an official release for the new consoles, which will be exactly the same as the old versions, but better optimised. It comes as part of the UE upgrade. The improvements that are listed for the new versions are the same improvements as players of the old versions on new consoles already get. It’s a first step but not a giant leap. Players will see very little difference with this release.

    I am of course in all of these posts referring to what the player will actually see as an upgrade, not any technical stuff which the player won’t. That will be the very short list of things in the faq you posted and some things we don’t know about yet. That may include new Mastery things, wooo. So far the list is very minimal and the PS5 version will be identical to the PS4 version but with a different badge, it’s not an upgraded version.
     
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  48. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It does allow new features to be added and one of them may be the improved passengers in the Rush Hour bundle, which is not an upgrade to the main game. I’m not saying nothing will change at all, I’m just saying the things we will actually see in this upgrade won’t be big changes. Everything will be using 4.26 once the upgrade is done so it is a first step to everything else, and that everything else will be getting added at a later date.
     
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  49. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It is yes, and steam trains will be added at a later date but not in this update. When it happens it will be a big feature but it isn’t happening in this year’s summer release. Only the technical groundwork is being implemented at the moment, not the actual feature.
     
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  50. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    So Am I right to say the foundations for steam are being laid currently and we may see it as next summers big update?
     

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