Why Is The Heavy Freight Being Forgotten?

Did I "vehemently scream"? I must've missed that part.

Anyway, that was the best word I could find to describe this. I mean when a company tells you it's YOUR fault for wanting good product for your money and you agree, what else can you be called? When you are clearly okay to position your interests below a random company's interests, and are happy to agree on you being the fault instead of the great "industry leader" company, then I find it hard to describe that in a respectful way.

Well, if you have a better word for it, I am happy to correct myself. My goal is not to insult anyone. But this is the best word I know for this behaviour.

 

Well no-one is screaming. Actually I can't count the number of times I've come close to using a similar " b word " . But I usually end up with " apologist " towards people who blame us, the paying customers, and make excuses for the developers, whoever they might be.

Now, maybe US fans should not be so surprised when a British based company leans towards European content. But TSW didn't start out that way, it was pretty much even Steven either side of the pond for quite a while. Maybe that's why getting the short end is so disappointing for North American players.

This " East Coast/West Coast " commuter rail thing simply mirrors what DTG is feeding to its UK and German customers. It's more acceptable because that's prototypical for European rail, especially the UK ( is there any scheduled freight traffic there these days ?).

But North America is overwhelmingly freight railroading and that's what is missing and appears to be dead as the proverbial dodo.

 

Clicnhfield has plenty of scenery issues (missing grass, bad LOD models, ugly terrain), a timetable that tends to lock up, performance issues with some of the freight cars, the locomotives had horrible sounds on release and they didn't even bother to include the alternative liveries.

Then there is the issue of the route being another slow running mountain route, which we had many previously already. And lack of rolling stock variety.

So as I said previously, even if there is some thurth in that the US selling poorer due to it being "less interesting", the biggest issue I think is that it is simply subpar in quality. Now add the two together, and you have a boring route that's also full of issues. Wow, I wonder why it didn't sell?

 

Even with a better produced route, it'd still be risky nonetheless with the impressions already made and the preferences already somewhat settled.
Also, clinchfield from my memory wasn't actually that bad tbh, just got a bit dull after a bit.
So, it's just a waiting game atp.

 

For passengers yes. Not freight.

 

The big problem with Clinchfield was that quite a few of the scenarios took place at night or in appalling weather conditions, so particularly if switching was involved you couldn't see a bloody thing (apologies for mild sweary). Then the lack of banking comms which meant you couldn't get some of the heavier trains started on a gradient particularly in said foul weather conditions.

Then although Clinchfield was scenic, the scenery consisted of running through a fairly narrow valley for 40 miles without any distant vistas. Compare that to the Shasta or Feather River routes, as experienced in TSC.

I personally don't think DTG should write off US freight, they just need to sit down and think about how to get away from the cliche of long heavy trains up one side of the mountain then back down the other. Maybe take a punt at something mid-West like the old Missouri Pacific Jefferson City, Sedalia that sort of area. Presumably they don't need "permission" to actually represent a railroad route and information such as signalling/gradient charts may well be in the public domain. Reuse the existing traction and car fleet as required. If it doesn't sell, then at least they can say they tried.

 

And I think you're reasonably too critical for the amount you invest compared to what you get.
*shrugs*
So we both have opinions.
Whoopee.
Would it make you more or less likely to have a healthy discussion if I started harping on how selfish and irrational you were being from my perspective?
Would you love it and suddenly say "Oh you're right! I AM being petty, selfish and irrational! Silly me!"

Or would you just get upset and reject my arguments even more?

That is what labeling people like that does.

In short, it doesn't help your case.

As I said, I don't disagree with many of the points in part, but the delivery is horribly demeaning and intolerant to the point of tainting your arguments and rendering them less acceptable or even ignored.

 

Last time I checked, this game is advertised as a authentic simulator. DTG effectively blaming customers for expecting what is literally advertised in their promos is rather ridiculous.

Whist freight trains aren't that interesting to me compared to passenger trains, I think the problem with U.S freight routes is that they are just mostly slow mountain pass routes with basic operations. They all feel the same. U.S routes in general tend to have worse quality than European routes. U.S freight routes have no variety which makes it hardly suprising that they don't sell. German/Austrian and UK routes have a mixture of freight and passenger services. Something that U.S routes rarely have. They should perhaps make something that isn't a slow mountain pass route.

It would be nice to have more freight routes for those that like them. Maybe they will return in the future

 

Your comment reminds me of the whole situation with Steam trains. I was interested in Spirit of Steam but the issues with the steam trains resulted in me not purchasing that route along with peak forest due to the issues going unresolved and the poor route choice of Peak Forest. Had the issues not been there, I would've bought Spirit of Steam

 

I don't think it's the routes. It's the lack of more "gameplay loop" content. There's nothing seriously wrong with most of the US freight routes in game. They're very playable. It's partially a matter of trying to "please everyone" as well as "limited scope."
As I said, there's nothing wrong with them. Cajon Pass as a challenging climb isn't "wrong." It's a type of gameplay for a challenge that many players asked for. So they got it.
Likewise, Sherman Hill is relatively flat and open...which some players asked for with quite higher speeds.
Sand Patch is a great example of Appalachia mainline through some valleys.
Horsehoe Curve is exactly what it's said to be.
Clinchfield is a coal mining map.
Oakville is a great example of short haul in a relatively urban, industrial area with a focus on short haul and shunting.
They're all bits of what people wanted, but you can't please everyone with every map.
None of them are "bad."
I enjoy all of them at different times.
But they're not going to all satisfy the same niche because they're very different.
Yes, some have some more issues than others (the Ethanol bugs make those scenarios unable to complete for example), but no more than most DTG content. They're 90% and that's an "A" rating anywhere else in the world but this forum.
Hell, rockets in general only reach about a 90% success rating but we didn't stop launching them.

To me what it lacks and other games do better is depth. Freight isn't just about A-B, as much as that's the stereotype by "passenger" folks. It's a whole gameloop. Whereas passenger stops are each "part" of the passenger experience, freight has "steps" in the loading/unloading at destinations which we don't get.

Just as you have to interact to stop, open doors, load passengers, etc.... freight should be stopping and attaching/detaching cars, doing a little shunting, etc. Most of the timetables and scenarios are just A-B drives, which are equivalent to a passenger run that doesn't stop. Just as we'd think that was weird for a passenger run to not stop somewhere along the line, it's equally weird for freight to be the same way.

Or not stop at a station... as many freight runs don't. They often stop in the middle of the tracks... and a few stop at passenger stations (which would be awkward in real life), so there's a lot more that could be done to make them interesting.

As for the rolling stock... what we have in game is actually pretty decent. In fact, it covers most of the stock in North America for the time period. Just throw some liveries on and call it a day. There's full lineups for all the Class 1's and many of the Class 2's. There's always the "well you don't have this one" but seriously if you "have to" use a GP-38 or SD-40 when you want a GP-40...it's not really a hardship.

There's only at present a couple options for locomotive companies (GE and EMD) after the 1960s so "modern" stuff is going to be pretty limited. That's the nature of the North American market. Just variations on the same chassis over and over and over. That's realistic. Besides, most of the railroads run multiple types so it's "realistic" for them to run one of the existing locos in game, even if they do have others also on the roster.

But, as people have said it boils down to market. Many of the freight people are better served on other games and as I said before.... it's part of a part of a part of a part of a small market. The number of actual US freight only people in TSW is not huge. It can make a profit yes... but that same investment put into European EMUs will pay back several times over what a US freight route makes.

Now add onto that the issues with licensing and having to travel to do research (rather than hop in the car and drive an hour in the UK)
and it's a lot more hassle for a lot less profit.

Third parties are in the works for US freight content. Groups with better access, geographic location and passion. (High Iron for example) so why not just let them make it?

I've found fun playing TSC freight routes and Railroader for variety, mixing it up with running the existing TSW stuff.

Then again, I can see where the "console or die" players don't have that option and I'm sorry they're so limited.

It still doesn't really make DTG bad for focusing on what the majority of players want.

Modern EMUs aren't my thing either, but realizing a fact and understanding another person's point of view as valid isn't just 'apologizing" for them. It's understanding others' viewpoints and tolerating different opinions.

 

"Microsoft Flight Simulator" is regularly attacked for being "not authentic enough" too.... but it's still the leading retail flight sim out there.

Does that mean the military has better ones? Yes.

Does that mean those would cost 10 times as much? Also yes.

Interestingly unless I'm wrong there aren't "train simulators" as such in the train industry. They teach you on a real train.

So, the whole idea of a "sim" is a concept, not an actual thing.

It's up to the person making the sim what a "sim" is.

For example, I've heard people claim that it's not a "true sim" if you're not using VR headset and gloves with full consoles of buttons and a fully articulated chair with built-in speakers.

And while yes, that might be more "real" for them.... I'm perfectly find with just having a game on my normal computer screen, a keyboard and a mouse. It's all about personal preference, and as such the designers have even more right to define their own product than anyone else.

Telling the designer they're not designing right is pretty ballsy.

Be like telling Da Vinci his sculptures just "aren't real enough looking for me. Do better."

 

I disagree that the routes aren't part of the problem. Sure it is one thing to make 1 or 2 mountain pass routes, but when most routes are effectively a slow mountain pass route with similar operations, it just makes it less interesting and the vibe is the same. Couple that with the scenery issues on some routes, they ultimately lose their appeeal. Sure they are playable, but playable doesn't mean that they are good

 

There absolutely are, Zusi being a well-known example (the professional version, not the hobby version publicly available).

 

You missed out. They are nice maps and the steam trains in game are fun.
I think Peak Forest is better looking of the two myself, but that's personal preference probably.
Very detailed and engaging.
Granted, I use them a lot to put other trains in Free Roam on them since the default timetables are limited.
The 104 update might add some variety, so I'm looking forward to that coming out to drive.

 

It's not the individual though. They aren't the one saying that this is a authentic simulator. DTG are the ones who ate doing that. If a company adversities a product a certain way, then a customer has every right to expect that. You may not and that is fine. Your expectations may be lower but it shouldn't be suprising that there are players that do want to have the game be as realistic as possible nor should they be blamed for expecting what is literally being advertised. Saying for instance that the sounds aren't accurate or the modeling of a train isn't accurate isn't balsy at all if that is actually the case

 

The only real difference in the pro version is the additional client for the trainer, to simulate faults and incidents, and control the signals.

 

Well the routes may have good quality, but the simulation of the steam trains aren't accurate and the issues despite them saying they would be fixed have not been so I don't think I missed out to be honest

 

I know, I just wanted to mention it for accuracy’s sake.

 

Peak Forest became my go-to for Steam largely because of being unable to play SoS for like, several forevers because of the AI SPADs. I still instinctively do not pick that route, even though as I recall they eventually fixed those?

 

I did a bucket load of SOS runs in journey recently, and no SPADs (or derailments, which I think was a thing)

 

TSC has good variety of freight and much of that also has hills/mountains too. They well sell.
If it's "good" or not is entirely a personal opinion.
You don't like them and that's fine.
You can personally not like them.

There's plenty of people who are 100% against a "boring flat map" too. Already had that discussion many times on this very forum.
Again... it's a small subset of an already small population of players.
I KNOW as someone who likes US freight that in TSW I'm a very small minority of the player base.
There's almost zero chance I'll get the routes I want, but you make do with what you can get.
I've found Sand Patch and Horsehoe Curve pretty close to the terrain and rolling stock around here and very enjoyable.
In fact, I'd put Sand Patch up against any other route out there, even the newest ones.

 

Then.... there's your answer if you want more realistic?

 

In TSC, there is variety with the freight routes. Something that is just not the case in TSW so it doesn't suprise me that they would sell better in TSC compared to TSW.

 

The TSW timetable concept is the problem. It's not helping freight runs being interesting.

TSC's built in scenario editor allows for everyone to create complex scenarios, including shunting or marshalling. And the Workshop is full of them.

Run8's strength is the industry configs and tagging system that are generating the gameplay and jobs for you. Being an open world, you'll automatically get rakes of cars that need to be replaced based on their loading status which is based on (adjustable) defined time intervals. There is no timetable, because all is depending on how many players are working together. If you're solo, it'll take much longer doing setouts, assembling trains and delivering the freight to their destinations.

 

My man, your arguments are very difficult to be taken serously when you keep roleplaying in your replies (*slow clap*, *shrugs*, etc) and you don't reply to any actual points. So from my end I believe the discussion is healthy, you are the one who just keeps trying to attack me for my "style", apparently, without adding anything of value to the actual discussion.

In either way, I honestly don't care what you call me. I'm just a customer stating my opinions - my needs and what I think the problems are with the produts. Whether you think if I'm too critical or not doesn't really bother me. Yes, we have different opinions and I am stating mine. I do believe the points I brought up are reasonable, because nothing I pointed out is unreasonable to expect from TSW.

But this whole thing is funny because previously you said you mostly agree with my points and your only issue is my use of a single word. So I don't see the point of this argument.

Long story short and back to topic, US content is severly undercooked compared to european add-ons and that's the biggest issue in my opinion. They are sub par in quality, so they sell worse. If we really insist on them being simply more boring, then they are selling double worse, because they are broing AND bad. If they were good quality, they would sell better, because quality sells.

I mean look at Niddertalbahn. It is anything but an exciting route. Single track rural line with 60 kmph top speed, and only two type of trains. Yet regarded as one of the best because it's actually good. So I don't buy the "it's boring so it doesn't sell" argument for US routes either. If US freight was boring, then we wouldn't have so many US freight games out there.

 

I am once again restating the need for more Clinchfields. The branches, the different types of services, the timetable that runs through an entire day of the various operations which neatly follow on from each other.

 

I think this is the difference in a nutshell.
I am satisfied with the steam and enjoy it.
You aren't.
I get it we disagree on what is "playable" or "enjoyable" but in the end, this is why DTG stopped doing it, so instead of a simplified steam system, there's just no new steam content.
Again, not to beat a dead horse but they're going to go for what is the easiest, most popular and makes the most money.
Modern passenger stuff sells the most.
Steam is the least popular/least in demand.
Every hour of labor they put into it generates much less revenue for the company.
And frankly if other developers are doing it better.....

This then applies to US freight.

 

They are still very flawed though. No matter how nice the scenery is it is so often ruined by the muffles the steam locos have in game. PFR could have been an excellent opportunity to tick two boxes, steam and, what is being disscussed here, heavy freight, however by having the flawed steam locos, they also ruined the heavy freight experience of dragging those ICIs up the 1:80 (if memory serves) to Peak Forest as it is accompanied by the most horrible muffled noise ever. Just imagine what the locos would have sounded like in real life dragging those loads up and compare it to in game. Pathetic.
Not only that aspect, but PFR's timetable also seemed to exclude many other freight workings along other parts of the line too which were a shame, but again would be ruined by the racket. PFR could have been up their as a standard setter, it had the scenery for it, but sadly were let down by the other aspects.

 

PFR's timetable is terrible. Timetable World have just released pdf downloads of a massive amount of London Midland Region working timetables. A quick scan of the Rowsley - Gowhole 1963 freight timetable shows about 50 trains in each direction every weekday - compare that to PFR's 6 southbound and 15 northbound freight trains!

 

Sadly I don't play either but mainly due to the timetables which are empty and unrepresentative. The class 104 pack should at least make PFR much more interesting and will bring me back to what is a very well made route.

I find SOS just depressing now and if I am honest it makes me slightly angry to see what could have been. It could have been an immersive and busy steam period route, but has been left as more of a backwater route on the verge of Richard Beeching's axe! It seems a waste to me.

 

Well I am aware that steam isn't in demand and that the routes sold poorly but then the question becomes why? I wanted to give it a try despite not being interested in steam but the issues pushed me away from it and I'm sure that was the case for some players as well. Had they released in a better state, maybe it would've been more popular but we will never know.

 

Pretty much this, I think if DTG put Hella effort into a route with the clinchfield approach, you'd probably get a good number of sales and reviews.
In the simulation community, reviews and "Word of mouth" goes a long way.

 

I don't get the feeling PFR was a great success, I never got the impression SOS sold poorly. There was so much hype and excitement even amongst some of those who probably have a poster of an Electrostar on their wall (if that is still a thing nowadays).

PFR wasn't helped by its scope in my opinion, I hope the class 104 pack renews interest in it and maybe, although I doubt it, cause DTG to think again.

There seems plenty of interest in steam on TSC I fail to see how some of those wouldn't be attracted to steam in TSW as it has potential. Certainly when SOS came out I found the driving experience immersive despite some of the flaws. You got the impression of being on a noisy and rocking footplate, much more so than in TSC.

Anyway I think we have derailed this topic!

 

Why don't we make a cohesive thread with things we want for U.S Freight?
Just the community coming together and just making a wishlist of features and improvement priorities that DTG can read up on, and maybe, just maybe it'd encourage them to make a new US freight route.

 

The situations are rather similar between freight and steam however. As you rightly point out, steam is popular in tsc. American freight routes are also popular in tsc so you would rightly assume that the popularity would correlate to TSW. I think the problem as you already pointed out which also relates to U.S freight is just the scope of the routes along with the limited operations when it comes to the U.S freight routes which doesn't make it appealing

 

Problem, we have made our voices clear in the past, things get said, but nothing has happened as of yet.....

Only thing I saw as a positive for US freight ATM was DTG using UP and BNSF in proper locations on San Bernadino Line, unlike Antelope Valley, where they used BNSF in place for UP cause "More people own Cajon"

 

That was such a braindead move, lol. They make the current route less realistic (so less appealing), while also missing a good chance to get people into buying Sherman Hill for the UP layer. It's like they want as little US sales as possible.

 

Even better would be making a UP ES44AC from the BNSF ES44C4 model and repainting the Maxi IV's into fake TTX cars with the DTGX branding, and include it with AVL.

 

Okay, that's valid. Though I'd say honestly it wouldn't hurt to make another one. Maybe another try, who knows.
Words are free, so nothing much is lost except time.

Though yes I 100% understand the frustration behind putting effort in suggestions and getting basically no response from DTG.

 

Well a key issue is the pile of issues both routes have, and even worse the fact that the steam simulation just isn't finished.

 

Me, a bootlicker? I've been on these boards since the TSW1 days, I've left well over 15k comments, and many of them have been outright snorters. I did a three-page post on all of Clinchfield's problems! I have never held back when DTG has missed the mark.

But I am hearing a lot of voices coming down from high horses: "How dare DTG blame us for wanting good product" - when the issue is not one of "good" product at all, but demanding perfect product, or product meeting an unattainable standard of perfection. I am reminded of a spoiled sixteen year old throwing a tantrum because the new BMW her parents bought her is the wrong color. There are some people on here for whom no route will ever be good enough; if it isn't in 12k VR with Run8/Zusi gameplay then it's trash. And that is why- and remember, I am paraphrasing what Matt said- it's a losing game and he doesn't want to play any more. Maybe he would feel more disposed to deal with the access challenges of US freight if he didn't get crapped on every time a US route comes out: the US freight fans are an order of magnitude less tolerant than the Germans or Brits.

You say that US content lags in quality behind European stuff-- but just today we saw a group of talented modders release a complete overhaul of WCMLS to bring it up to standard, because DTG's version wasn't. I hear praise for Niddertalbahn: but that and Blackpool, let me remind you, are third-party.

None of this is to say that DTG should be given a pass when they really don't prooduce good product. The UP Heritage pack is an embarrassment. Both steam routes are, well, abysmal, despite all the effort that went into period assets; steam physics is broken and the timetables are dire. The original LIRR was an unplayable mess. The Dispolok 182 is bugged out; Rapid Transit sucks just as much today as it did in 2017. No, I don't lick their boots or kiss their bums. But I also don't LOVE all over them when a US freight loco has synthesized sounds,

 

This isn't just about a freight loco having synthesized sounds though. The issues with U.S routes and freight routes are well known and don't just involve sounds. These routes are $30-$40 so the fact that players do have high expectation is frankly justified. Effectively blaming customers for not having lower standards when they are being asked to spend $30-$40 is simply the wrong thing to do.

 

Even Milepost Simulations routes on TSC aren't perfect by any means, but at least what he's been putting out has been at least somewhat unique recently.

Rio Grande Southern: Narrow Gauge US steam
Tennessee Pass: Mainline US steam that isn't Union Pacific.
Pipestone Pass: Milwaukee Road electrics in Montana.

 

My man, the issue with US routes is not the synthesized sounds.

 

Also we all have been giving DTG some great ideas and suggestions but they shoot them down by simply giving us the no access no content line ..that shows they obviously dont care or want to even try...Lots of ppl on here have been suggesting and saying they could do something decent with what they already have license for and they do have a few decently done locomotives like the BNSF ES44C4 the sounds from it could be easily used to do a ES44ac which all major US RR roster they are the most common sight on freights here in US or the SD70aces except CSX dont operate any SD70aces today they used to have 70aces but sold them off and stuck pretty much to GE locos until lately they been rebuilding some old SD70MACs ..again we have been highly critical but have been sharing some good ideas suggestion s but they just refuse to work with us

 

Now if that ever makes it to the Steam store, could get my juices flowing.

And the perfect example of the type of area and prototype DTG should be looking to bring to TSW. Sometimes you just have to take a chance, if you play the safety shot each time that’s how we end with a bland game.

 

I hope it can come back by TSW 6 or late TSW5 there has been a Santa Fe gameplay pak on the roadmap since mid to late TSW4 cycle thngs are very quiet about it .just seems there is very low confidence now of what when or if anything is coming in new US north american freight content ..hasnt been any freight content since TSW3 DTG has let this go too long . I think also if DTG was neglecting passenger content like they are with freight this forum group would be even more upset ..i think instead of DTG dumping all this US commuter stuff on us they should put some efforts prority to jump start some US freight content soon it would be nice if by tsw 6to have a freight oriented route or a remastered US freight route to kick it off..

 

The Santa Fe pack is something I'm really looking forward to. I love the Santa Fe F7 even by itself, but as it is now, it just doesn't make sense. I assume the Santa Fe pack will make use of the F7 alongside a bunch of other reskins of existing rolling stock in Santa Fe liveries. I am hoping for a nice Santa Fe timetable, which sould be pretty fun is executed well.

 

we US freight fans get accused of being the most harsh ,critical demanding of all..I see some harsh criticism on some of the UK and other trains..but guess thats ok, we complain critical of stuff and everyone gets on the offensive about it.just like with what happening with the WCML UK route i read lots of criticism etc about that ..all id say to those upset with it How Does It Feel ,lots dont understand until the shoe is on the other foot ..

 

I am also looking forward to the Santa Fe pak .I bought that SF F7 as soon as it released the warbonnet paint scheme is classic..i hope there is some new or reskined warbonnet freight locomotive s plus yellow and blue Santa FE scheme