Would You Pay Extra For ‘pro Range’ Loco Dlc Add-ons?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Mar 28, 2022.

  1. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    as a simulator I agree. If we’re navigating back to “train world gen 8 arcade” as the next iteration I’m uncertain it’s realistic
     
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  2. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    I think this post nicely illustrates some of the disconnect between what many people in the forum think about when it comes to TSW2 purchases, and maybe what's more typical of the average customer. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if i'm misunderstanding you.

    I'd argue that your reasons for/against buying DLC are much closer to the "average" consumer:

    - love trains, but aren't necessarily an expert and haven't experienced many (if any) of these trains IRL as a passenger, let alone in any professional capacity, so the smallest innacuracies are far less important, and the "experience" of driving it is more important than it being 100% true-to-life

    - similarly, perfect simulation of safety systems is not a selling point at all

    - ability to drive/experience the train on various routes (i.e. layering) is VERY important

    Comparing that to the things many of us here (myself included) value, it might shed some light on why DTG just putting more of everything into a release (at a higher price no less) might not be financially responsible.

    IIRC, i believe it's been said that the BR101, which many of us (including me) consider to be one of the very best locos in the game didn't sell particularly well- i think it only being available to drive (at launch at least) on one route really hurt its potential.

    I'd argue that finally decoupling locos from routes and adding a quick drive mode would be more fruitful than any kind of "pro series".

    P.S. i only really play timetable mode, but even though quick drive doesn't appeal to me personally, I think it has the potential to widen the playerbase, which is beneficial to everyone.
     
  3. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    The BR187 sold well enough that Skyhook has, at best, delayed severely their fixed which were promised almost 1 year ago now.
    EDIT:
    I was hoping that the physics being completely awful like the in the Class 150 would be bad enough to put people off, but obviously that's not the case... I can't see how the Class 150 or the BR187 took more resources than the G6 or the BR612, so hopefully nobody decides to maximise profits, and that TSG will still continue to develop TSW content.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2022
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  4. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Also due to the fact that the DB BR 101 didn't come with a cabcar. That's like making the dostos but without a cabcar. Many players including myself didn't buy the train for that reason.

    Another factor is probably down to the fact that HRR is a very short route and playtime for DB BR 101 services aren't very long. It would've been better suited for a different German route to be honest
     
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  5. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Funny how they were promising fixes for it 6 months before it came out ;)
    upload_2022-3-29_18-49-40.png

    Pretty sure it's there on the 387, and TPWS-TSS is on the Cathcart 314. Tbh, it's largely redundent because its main job is to stop the train if it passes a danger signal - the game does that already by kicking you out to the menu.
     
  6. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    About the BR187 I got way too carried away with the negativity on that one. But I really thought it was older, not a justification I should have checked.

    About TPWS, we already talked about that
    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/187-reviews-be-dropping-hard.52016/#post-455075
     
  7. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Well that's the whole crux of it, right?

    The WCL/Class 150 sold well despite the poor physics and sounds because a large portion (maybe even a majority) of the playerbase either don't know they're poor or just don't care.

    So, if DTG is looking at this data when planning new content, how should they react?
     
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  8. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Yes that was the point, I think I might actually delete most of my post and leave that...

    It is interesting, since apparently there must be some appeal to having realistic physics and systems, but it doesn't really seem one of the main features of the game
     
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  9. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Lol we all need to rant sometimes, and nothing you said was out of line IMO.
     
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  10. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I would pay more if it is was a route I cared about obviously.
     
  11. graham.haddon

    graham.haddon Member

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  12. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    WCL is more than just the Class 150. I just bought the route a few days ago and I absolutely love the route. Although I quite enjoy the Class 150, I might have bought the route with any train. (Although getting a new type of train certainly increased my willingness to buy it with 'only' 40% discount). The route was the main selling point for me, the train was just a nice bonus.

    And admittedly, although Rivet DLCs may have some inaccuracies or bugs, they do know how to make content that's actually different from what we already have. Unlike DTG, which is basically just making more of the same. I can appreciate Rivet taking the challenges on making something different, and I realize that challenge means it can't all be perfect. I never have really regretted on buying any of the Rivet products, while I'm well aware that many on the forums here have pretty strong feelings about the lack of quality in Rivet products.
     
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  13. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I do agree that they , whilst not always on the money do seem to put more quirky collectibles in etc. I'm intrigued how a small studio like them can afford to try new countries vs DTG who keep situating themselves in the core 3. Accountancy strikes again I envisage.

    Be interesting to see DTG run a poll for countries outside the big 3 desired and then use that to create their 4th arena
     
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  14. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Well-Known Member

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    I think I'd pay if it was from a 3rd party like AP. But I wouldn't if the loco/route is produced by DTG. Like others have said, it should be made to the highest standards they can make it. They shouldn't be taking shortcuts to just release content on time and we shouldn't have to pay more for better quality that they could've initially implemented. But if there's a 3rd party that can get some sort of agreement with DTG and have all the fancy tech, skills, money, time etc to implement hardcore/Pro features then yes id definitely throw my wallet at it. But it really must be the best of the best. There must be 0 faults/bugs (unless it is 100% guaranteed to be fixed with quick patches).
     
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  15. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    New countries isn't the only thing. The BR204 was the first German diesel locomotive. Isle of Wight certainly was certainly an unique route for its time. Arosa was not only a new country, but also the first narrow gauge route and the first mountainious route.

    Sure, mainly Arosa distant scenery wasn't too impressive, but at least Rivet tried. DTG just kept on making flat or slighty hilly landscapes.

    And Rivet routes always came with some new rolling stock, while DTG just kept recycling Dostos, Electrostars and Talents. (Even using the wrong Dostos on a certain route...).

    So it's not only about new countries (but it helps!), even within the big 3 there's plenty of opportunities to try something different.
     
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  16. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. I think DTG take the "safety in the numbers" approach which I get to some point. Eventually though people seek new sanctuaries and rivet, much as they narked me in the past could provide some of it with their willingness to diversify.

    That's said, DTG are taking the huge steam
    Gamble so respect there too
     
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  17. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Considering the amount of UK steam content available for Train Simulator, it's hardly a gamble. They know it'll sell well.
     
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  18. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    If Rivet raise their game then I will buy their products. That includes fixing the more blatant errors with their existing catalogue. WCL needs a massive rework to correct fencing, inaccurate crossings, weird stopping points and remove those dreadful tree stumps.
     
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  19. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Now that is something I would happily pay for again.
    A reworked WCL.

    The potential is there, but the execution...
    Surely there is an opening for someone releasing an upgrade pack for a less than stellar route.
    Even at full price.
     
  20. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    These are all good points- i think sometimes we focus only on the bad stuff around here lol.
     
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  21. kurtosizm

    kurtosizm Active Member

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    I'm in a position where I could pay more for DLCs, and I would pay more happily, as long as it goes through proper QA testing with added extra functions. I mean even with the current pricing, I'd expect much fewer bugs. At the moment, DLCs seem overpriced to me with the issues/slow bug fixing (if at all). The current situ is not ideal at all.
     
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  22. Aldarion

    Aldarion Member

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    No!
    I have TSW2 as a 'Pro' version of TS2022, so I do not see the point.
     
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  23. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Yes I would
     
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  24. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    It's worth remembering that DTG have said many times, including on these forums, that any price increase would not affect the quality of the final product.
     
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  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Which is why I don't understand why these threads about price increases keep popping up in the first place since dtg keep saying that price increases wouldn't change quality of the end product.
     
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  26. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    DTG have said many things :)
     
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  27. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Given the fact that they also talk about the scope of the project and evaluate how long the line will be, how much new rolling stock, how many branches, stations etc, against *something* then I can only conclude they work against budgets based on time and money. Perhaps there is a target ROI for each route, or just a reasonable approximation for person hours spent or perhaps they have a release schedule that says after x months it should be out of the door. At least some of these things seem flexible in places, but also binding in some instances.

    Therefore if they wanted to increase the budget for a route they could do so and request more money when they sell it to compensate appropriately for the hours spent on the route by their employees while hitting their target margins etc. It would take a longer gestation period and so they would need more route teams in order to keep up the pace of releases, but again this could all be factored into the question:

    If we wanted to do take longer and charge a higher price, how many would we have to sell per item, and how many would we expect to sell at that price point?
     
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  28. kurtosizm

    kurtosizm Active Member

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    They said that they'd look into some Class 313 issues after it came out (once the audio guy is back from holiday). Perhaps he's still on holiday...
     
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  29. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    What you fail to factor in is market forces. The higher the price the fewer people will buy so to cover increase development cost of say 20% the cost of cost price would need to be far more than 20% to generate the same profit. But if you are spending 20% more to produce something you ideally want 20% more profit to keep your shareholders happy. To do that the price has to go up even higher.

    DTG have clearly found what they believe is the sweet spot in terms of development costs/purchase price/profit.
     
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  30. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    But I think on this issue, DTG has been firm on their stance and have found a sweet spot in terms of their pricing. The problem that I think many here fail to understand isn't the fact that increasing prices will just improve quality, but that there is simply inconsistency in terms of quality of routes and trains. For instance, Dresden-Chemintz is a good quality route with amazing scenery, but then you have the Harlem line with missing landmarks, inaccurate scenery, pis and missing logos in station signs along with incorrect PIS and the m7a audio issues. We had hma which was a very nice route with good scenery but then we got sehs with the inaccurate and abysmal scenery in the hs1 section. We had the Class 465 and BR 101 which are good trains, but then we have the LIRR Budd M3 EMU, The DB BR 187 and the 1938 tube stock which are modelled well but the sounds aren't right making them not have good quality.

    The fact is that dtg need to improve their consistency in terms of the quality of their dlc's. Increasing prices wouldn't make things better or change things. It will actually make it worse because many players already see the price of dlc's as very high anyways so increasing prices would simply lead to less sales because many players don't want to spend more money on dlc's especially with inflation going on. There aren't many games on the console market charging this much money for dlc's. With less sales then dtg may have to increase prices even more to recuperate more profit for shareholders as well to make up for lost profits. It's clear that the standard $19.99 loco/emu dlc price and $29.99 route dlc price is the sweet spot for dtg and we have gotten good quality dlc's at those price points. Increasing prices will just lead to less sales. Just because some players here would happily pay more for dlc's, not everyone would want to do that as Dovetail have said over and over again.

    We don't need "pro range" dlc's at all. DTG just simply need to be more consistent in terms of their quality of their dlc's and we have seen with the standard price that dtg can make good quality dlc's. But they lack consistency in terms of the dlc's they relese. They just need to be more consistent. That's all.

    INCREASING PRICES WON'T IMPROVE OR CHANGE THE QUALITY OF DLC'S AND PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT AND STOP THINKING THAT INCREASING PRICES WILL IMPROVE QUALITY BECAUSE IT WON'T! DOVETAIL JUST NEEDS TO BE MORE CONSISTENT.
     
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  31. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think that the current prices for routes and locos are probably too low to support any increase in sophistication. But I imagine DTG's number crunchers have found that the demand for TSW2 dlc is more elastic than we perhaps assume.

    I've always found it incongruous that the price for TS content has always been about 33% more than that for TSW(2), for routes at least.
     
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  32. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    This seems like the correct answer.

    You also have to figure in whatever royalties they get from TSW2 (and TSW2020 before it) being on Gamepass, but considering inflation, especially in the past year or so, it seems a bit underpriced.

    I'm REALLY interested to see the pricing for SoS- I think it could give us some clues for future content- if it's $40 and sells well, that could be the standard route price going forward.

    Could also explain the absence of ANY subsequent DLC announcements- maybe they haven't announced anything because the scope can't be finalized until the budget is set? We know SoS is a bit behind schedule, so maybe that's delaying everything else?

    Edit: i'm NOT suggesting there's nothing else currently in development, just that scope can't be finalized.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2022
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  33. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    But who said it is about DTG's extra-paid improvements? Memento AP weather pack etc
     
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  34. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I'm a bit sceptical DTG will raise their standards. Look at the core problems, lighting, sound etc. What if there was a third party that could raise the standards of DTG's or others' DLC? Would you buy them if they were good enough?

    Some use mods now and some are really good and embarrass DTG somewhat but this would be like a third party doing mods that was integrated in game. If you think a little longer on it, it would help DTG out no-end as it takes DTG sometimes months/years to address certain updates/upgrades/bugs in game. We might even get good enough sound.

    Obviously this might have a downside, with DTG given the excuse to produce worse quality DLC given the knowledge that a third party will clean it up for them but if it was done properly I'd buy it.
     
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  35. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    The price definition is about quantity and quality measure. So, if we want more... A pure market law. In current budgets we got all this. Nothing more.
     
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  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Remember when dtg increased the price of the rush hour bundle to deliver the routes in a good quality. Considering the amount of crashes in two of the three routes and a broken atc system, that aged pretty badly.

    I remember when the class 700 released for ts2022 and it was very bad that AP basically came and improved it so what you said about the downside of having third parties doing the things/improvements that dtg should've done themselves is true and can unfortunately happen
     
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  37. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Of course the Rush Hour bundle was still heavily discounted, even after that price adjustment. And once the bundle was discontinued,
    the individual routes went back to the standard TSW2 price. So Boston, BML and Dresden were never more expensive than any other route.

    I'm expecting the SOS routes to be regularly priced, unless they're bundled like Rush Hour. And bundling 3 steam routes could be coupled with an extended release schedule, say 3-6 months. I could go for that.
     
  38. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    But I remember matt said the current inflation that's going on in the world now doesn't really affect or relate to the prices of dlc. Think of it this way, dtg only have to make the DLC one time. They don't have to make it several times like an everyday good such as computer chips, food, gas etc. There wouldn't be a supply and demand issue because dtg makes it one time and anyone can buy it at anytime
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2022
  39. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Yeah totally. DTG should be doing better quality DLC trouble is I don't think they can. If I had my way there would be a full editor made to the public but we know that is not going to happen. Given the quality of most of the mods wouldn't it be great if they were given the tools to make changes? Obviously that would mean we pay for it but then I would only pay for it if it was worth it.

    I know there are flaws in my argument but imo we lose out anyway. We either keep things the way there are with DTG DLC with poo lighting, poor sounds and a bug or two and then DTG saying they will fix it 'soon' or we could have a decent third party that 'fix' the DLC the way it should of been in the first place but the downer being we have to pay for it.

    Ideally modders could have the tools now so we could get the DLC cleaned up now and for free but DTG will not give modders the tools they need. In fact it is amazing what they do without the official tools. I don't think it will happen, what I said before, but would improve TSW2 imo.
     
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  40. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh I know they went back to being individual routes at standard price, but it shows that when they said they increased the price to focus on quality and not to deliver a buggy product, that clearly wasn't the case which shows that increasing prices doesn't mean good quality or issues won't occur because there can be issues or bad quality
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2022
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  41. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    I will opt to slightly take a step away from the OP to state that I am more and more disgusted by the fact that DTG offers even quite recent DLC on extreme discount as part of their feeble attempts to ramp up interest in their various and fallacious celebrations of nothing much at all. I'll be definitely be delaying future DLC purchases until sales arise.
    Running the same, now stale, timetable sessions with only the locomotive changed amounts to boredom with a fresh coat of paint.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2022
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  42. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Hold on? Are you saying that you didn't like when dtg made recent dlc's go on sale because of fallacies of celebrations of nothing and yet you will buy dlc's when they are on sale anyways? Doesn't make sense then if that's the case because you may as well get the dlc's on sale then that were on sale if they interested you since you want dlc's when they are on sale

    Or perhaps I misinterpreted what you said
     
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  43. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    What would pro trains include normal ones do not.

    I’d welcome an understanding and some actual examples beyond “more features”
     
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  44. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I guess what I would think and some others probably would agree as a pro train (the concept of a more expensive loco dlc sounds ridiculous and unnecessary frankly) would be the ability to use more features of a train such as clicking more buttons on a train that will be able to do something on my train. The ability to go to the engine room on trains that have them. The ability to turn on or off the ac or passenger lights. the train. A working Ebula system and GSMR system. The ability to manually adjust pis on the train since recent trains pis are set automatically. The ability to use the restroom, realistic sounds, lighting and physics on trains. There is more but I'd be typing all day.
     
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  45. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Some of that I can see, some of that I see as use/look once and never again
     
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  46. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Working Ebula is the only feature that would tempt me but then how is it going to work? Surely the real work in getting Ebula working would be on the actual route, the display on a loco would be the easy part and would on work on Ebula ready routes? Now would I pay a premium for a route DLC which had working Ebula? Providing the rest of the route was to a high standard, yeah I probably would.

    As for some of your other suggestions, who in their right mind is going drop another 10% of the price of a loco DLC just because you visit the little boys room or turn on the imagery AC?

    As a side note realistic sounds and physics are promised on every TSW DLC already so no I'm not going to pay a premium for something which should be (according to the sales blurb) standard across the range already.
     
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  47. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Ok perhaps the bathrooms were a bit of a stretch but hey at least you get my point :)
     
  48. Kangaroo Conductor

    Kangaroo Conductor Active Member

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    Instead of going "Pro" and "Not so great but cheaper", I'd instead go for "New" and "Kinda new".

    For example a route that has no new rolling stock will be cheaper than a route with new rolling stock. A loco DLC that just has a loco becomes cheaper than one that comes with additional rolling stock, etc.

    I know that some routes are harder to make, for example ones that take place in the past, or that some rolling stock is harder to make than other, for example to aquire the sounds or implementing a new tech or feature. If the dev process would be more transparent, the price could reflect that. But at the current time, I'm not up for any change, especially, even if that super nice expensive dlc with 100% new content still does not work at the end. (I'm looking at you, Spirit of Steam)
     
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  49. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    What is this ungodly, cringeworthy, anal retentive fascination that some people have with restrooms on trains?
     
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  50. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Don't ask me lol. I don't care if we can have the ability to use the restroom or not. It's just what I thought that's what some players would see as part of a "pro-range" loco/emu dlc. I don't care about not having access to the restroom on trains even though it wouldn't probably make sense to pay more for the ability to use a train's restroom.

    But hey train drivers do use the bathroom at some point especially when doing long shifts so an argument can be made that having the ability to use the restroom on a train adds to the simulation ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2022
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