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Youtuber "frooglesim" Talking About Fsw And Dovetail In General

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by keksman, Apr 30, 2018.

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  1. keksman

    keksman Active Member

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    What he said sounds reasonable to me. Especially if you consider how DTG didnt add any kind of new feature to TSW in like one whole year. Feels like the development has been the following which looks like a endless cycle:
    releasing dlc - fixing bugs for this released dlc - releasing another dlc - fixing some bugs of the previous dlc and from the new dlc - releasing the 3rd dlc - fixing some bugs from the previous dlc and the new dlc ....

    They actually never added any kind of new feature to the sim unlike other companies who add some kind of free stuff to the game over the course of development. Im not talking about huge features like a editor or multiplayer... Rather smal things like the ability to lookup timtables in game or a simple time skipping feature for example.
    I guess the last and one of the only things they added for free was the BR 66 reskin. (which obv only GWE owners got)

    Thoughts?
     
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  2. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Watched the video definitely a eye opener, and makes a lot of sense but does not shock or surprise me.
     
  3. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Traffic on roads!
     
  4. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    Thinking the same thing about new features really. It's not like we are getting new routes with new features, I can only dream of "Here's our new route! And in this new route, we are introducing automatic guard control! No more needing to press TAB, the guard will do it all for you." while reality is just more of the same, but in a different location. Feels more like "moving onward...(that's it)" as opposed to "moving onward and upward!" as they say.
     
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  5. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Do you think we’re going to get a similar thing to TS20XX where a core update is released annually? It wouldn’t surprise me.
     
  6. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea at all. Hasn't happened this year, so maybe not? There's upsides and downsides to the yearly update so I could see it going either way. In my opinion, I hope we don't get this cliche "name the simulator after the next year ahead" thing happening with TSW, but I don't think that will happen either.
     
  7. Drakoz

    Drakoz Member

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    I'm not surprised about FSW going away. Given DTG's model of how they sell products, the writing was on the wall from day one, and I think most flight simmers knew it. DTG would have had to completely change their relationship with their customers and 3rd party devs to overcome that. I am sad to see it go, however. There is a lot that is neat about FSW, but given the competition, it didn't really have a chance.

    What does this mean for TSW? I hope they are moving their FSW dev team over to TSW. TSW needs the help. Also, train simulators in general are a bit more unique in their market space - the competition isn't a direct apples to apples comparison so there is more room to survive. FSW really had an uphill battle. But for TSW, success is entirely up to DTG.

    So I hope DTG's decision to dump FSW was a wake up call as to the fundamental reason why they get so much crap from users in the forum. The same sales model that killed FSW is the same reason why TSW customers are often hostile to DTG and why TSW could also fail. I've never seen a game get so much active hostility from it's user base. But it isn't all TSW that is the problem. I believe, it comes from years of frustration with TS20xx as well. DTG would probably make a lot more money if they focused significant efforts toward fixing this.

    I enjoy TSW a lot actually, and I am saying this in hopes that DTG is listening - I mean really listening - which means making changes to solve the problem. I want to see TSW succeed. But even I have reached a point where if they don't show a future for the product with scenario and world/rolling stock editors, letting in the 3rd party developers as partners to build a strong long term future, and fixing long outstanding bugs, I see no reason why TSW won't go the same way as FSW. That would be a tragedy.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
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  8. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I think TSW will go the same way as FSW.

    We've had no content creation tools and there's no indication that they'll arrive soon, in fact there's no tangible evidence that they are even being developed.

    There is no game mode equivalent to "Free Roam" or "Quick Drive" and no way for users to choose which locomotives to use on which route. All previous train simulators (MSTS, Trainz, Railworks, etc) had this functionality, the absence in TSW implies DTG has no interest in allowing users to maximize their usage of the DLC they have bought.

    I suspect that if content creation tools do arrive, they will be behind a T&Cs wall which 3rd party creators will have to agree to before being given access, they may even have to pay a license fee to allow them to develop additional content for TSW.

    The community for TSW will never really become established, a modding community will never even have a chance to develop and people will ultimately tire of purchasing bug-ridden DLC. TSW will become the next FSW.

    Of course this is all speculation, but what choice do we have as a community when DTG are not forthcoming with information regarding the future of TSW.
     
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  9. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Yes, about a game that has been out for s relatively short amount of time facing an extremely hosting and nitpicking audience. For every positive comment I've seen on this forum there are five dissenting voices wanting everything immediately and on a plate.
    I realise when TSx has so many features people believe that TSW should be up there with it, but developing a new model from scratch does take time. Something people don't want to give them.
     
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  10. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, they are "developing" it, but then selling it at full price as a complete and finished product.

    I would cut DTG a bit more slack if the game was released in Early Access, but the fact is that game was released at full price as a complete game and since its release several DLC have been released, further implying that the original release was a "finished" product. This is what frustrates people. If it was in Early Access then it would be available for a lower price and the expectation would be that certain features would be missing and many bugs would be present. If you release a product as a finished one, I will judge it as a finished product. Release it as an Early Access or as a Beta version, then I will judge it differently.

    This is why people get frustrated and post negative comments. They bought what they thought was a finished product, only to find out that actually it's still in development with many bugs. DTG keep doing it, they advertised the NEC as finished product and then supplied it without any of the freight services. If the freight services are not ready, either don't release it or release it as a work in progress with updates pending. It's misleading and disingenuous to sell it by boasting of its realistic timetable on the Steam Store page, only to supply it with a significant amount of the timetable missing.
     
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  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing as a finished product in software terms, if you look at it the way you have then the biggest rip offs in the world are microsoft office and any version of an OS...
    To be honest £25 for a game that can be played for hours on end even without the updates, extensions etc is damn good value and cheaper than games that cannot be updated in any form.

    And yes, I realise that saying "the entire timetable will be available to you to operate" would be incorrect but I am not sure that was the claim made. Having every single detail bang on would be almost impossible so I guess it comes down to cutting people some slack or go do better yourself...
     
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  12. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I would never suggest that every single detail needs to be bang on. Game development will always involve many carefully considered compromises. My issue with the NEC is that on the Steam Store page it says "Experience a full ‘day-in-the-life’ in Service Mode, which features the recreation of an entire 24-hour timetable based on real-world activities." Given that the real world NEC features freight services and the game includes freight cars, it's not unreasonable to expect Service Mode to have freight services included, especially as freight services were included with GWE. We also know that DTG intended to include freight services on release, but they didn't, and they didn't mention anywhere on the Steam Store that they were missing and would be patched in at a later date. Therefore, in my eyes at least, the NEC was released as an unfinished product.

    As for "cutting people some slack or go do better yourself..." That's a somewhat lazy argument and indicative of the mindset that allows DTG to cut corners. Why should the options of the consumer be restricted to either accepting a poor quality product or having to create their own product? There's actually a third option where DTG take more pride in their products, test them thoroughly, release them when they are ready and dedicate appropriate resources to any bugs that may have slipped through the net.

    Sometimes it is appropriate to cut developers some slack. People cut Armstrong Powerhouse slack because they know if there is a problem, it was probably unforeseen as the testing is thorough, and they know AP will quickly put it right and before releasing anything else. That's why AP is a well respected developer.
     
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