Tsw: Switching In The Subdivision!

I'm friendly already by not buying and refunding it just to write a negative review

 

They don’t respond to constructive criticism.

 

That definitely makes sense knowing the things DTG has been doing recently lol

 

Sometimes, when things are really really bad, it's better to give clownstructive criticism, because if you can't sit around and laugh about it just a little bit, then the only other options for comfort left are to cry, or to eat ten Big Macs and re-watch the first series (season) of Friends on DVD.

And I am not going to be watching season one of Friends. And I am not going to cry over DTG.

*still waiting for the burgers to arrive*

 

Although, Dimitri didn't specifically say there would be a response on Monday, he just said it will be after the weekend. I'm splitting hairs but that's what he said.​

 

Yep, just like they're fixing Mastery after the Christmas break.

 

A fairly big change, with the locomotives on the OSD DLC is that they can all drive through buildings - nobody saw that coming - including the people in the buildings....:



(NB: Image originally posted by Factor41 - it's such a good slide from the video....)

 

Well DTG say you can almost reach out and touch every milepost and every signal because of the realism.. Go one better and actually drive through buildings, go on.. Feel the detail. All yours for £25..

Oh the humanity.. All those innocent man, women and kiddiewinks..

 

Extremely poor communication on behalf of DTG. A whole day has passed and not a single word has been said on these forums.

Even something such as “We are continuing our investigations and will update you in due course” is better than nothing.

I made a thread about DTG’s communication on these forums, which can be found here. The results show that the majority of people voted bad.

Guess what, despite the poll and results, not a single thing has changed.

Now I oppose to any anger or hate against companies and individuals but DTG really do not help themselves...

 

And it's still for sale with the misleading description unchanged.
It's beyond belief scandalous even it's as if they just don't care.

 

And just like we'd hear more about the Editor Open Beta 'in the New Year' back in 2018...

 

Yes, that's just an insult....to clowns.

Jokes and banter aside, the overwhelming majority of posts are constructive in nature, so if you're going to generalise, I'd say it's generally constructive.

 

I don’t see it that way.

 

Fair enough.

 

Anthony, what’s your honest thoughts about times when they promised us this or that and years have gone by and they haven’t said anything since like the examples above, also what about the studio articles I mean seriously how long has it been and Why did they stop? Being excited about this game is difficult when it shouldn’t be.

 

AlexNL made a post regarding this, but it's disappeared. Anyway, in the live stream Matt says at 1:05:52 'so in this area you can basically drive where ever you want.' The screenshot below is what was on screen at the time and is what was being refered to. We now know a lot of this trackage shown on the screen is not available to the player.

 

We’ve gotten responses from some at dtg, oh I’m working on this article right now *one year passes* ... that’s sad and unacceptable I don’t get it

 

You know, you have to wonder what the route builders were thinking when they plonked the buildings over the tracks like this. ie. "No one is going to be able to access this area so we'll just put these giant sheds over the tracks". I don't think they were thinking it would get opened up or used at any point.

 

I think I've found a workaround for the situation: When you drive your highly flammable and explosive tankers into those sheds on the track... Just imagine they were the DTG offices. Maybe the route is fun this way! It's not about the length, it's how you use it... right?

 

Yeah, I decided to remove my post when I saw that someone else had already posted the stream in this topic. Don't want you guys and gals wasting time on stuff you've already read and seen

 

I am not against the jabs and such that myself and others have made towards DTG, but this to me is too far. As frustrating as this has been, and I believe I speak for most of us here that we wish this was better handled, this comment to me is inappropriate.

At the end of the day, the employees of DTG, many who do not deserve to be in the cross-hairs regarding this situation and put a lot of effort into delivering us the best product they can, are human beings.

The issues we complain about here seem to reside in upper level management too, not the entire company body.

 

That is too far, regardless of how much they messed up, no one deserves such threats as those. Even if you didn't mean it that way, It still shouldn't have been said. The point of us being heated about this isn't to throw threats and pointless anger in one direction. It's for the sake that we want this game to go somewhere and as of right now it isn't. But when you escalate it to as such, it's no longer criticism or feedback, its just being childish.

This goes to anyone and everyone: No threats, whether if its a joke or not. No one needs the added fear of thinking if something goes wrong, someone will do bodily harm to them. (because I'm certainly sure on this planet, it has happened before) Let's be civil and just.

 

I reported that post...Im certain DTG will deal with it now

I expected better from him tbh. You cannot dismiss a post like that as a joke

 

Yes - precisely. It's not just the map in the manual, and the Sirius Cybernetics Marketing blurb - this DevStream was a key part of the advertising, and part of the marketing scheme. It's quite incriminating, overall, and bizarrely, self-incriminating and self-published..... ;-O

When I saw the full extent of those yards, as highlighted on the in-game map in the DevStream, and considered the likely dense build-out of industrial buildings around it, and the possibility that it might be properly lit, I literally saw thousands of opportunities to take really cool screenshots, and do some arty stuff... Blade Runner style rainy street pictures... snow covered high contrast scenes... sunrise and sunset between buildings... etc. I said as much, in the middle of the "Oh Canada" thread. I actually considered the Hamilton layout to be a "network". (Even if it wasn't quite a "route unto itself....")

Obviously, I was wrong - I was stupid enough to place trust in what was said on the DevStream, even if the written blurb was ridiculously and unbelievably hyperbolic. It was all just a bunch of "porkies". (rhyming slang.....>> Pork Pie = Lie)

Total madness. I mean - surely they knew that people would find out.....? And pretty quickly...?

And then all of that is made much much worse by the sheer extent of the bugs, sim kick-outs, boundary issues, splodge and bodge scenery placement*, etc., etc., etc.

*which I might mention in a later post...

 

I have quite a bit of experience building out sim geography and kitting it out with assets, and I can give you a short answer to your question. It was rushed. Not just done quickly - but slap-dash extreme rushed.

The buildings were placed across the tracks, at the very last minute, because you were not (in the end) expected to see the tracks at all, after they had decided to not include them in the route.

The nature of the extreme rush to publish is made even clearer in that they didn't even have enough time to pull up the redundant tracks, or disable them as assets linked to locos and the map..... and then clean up the physical boundaries (because the places where you get kicked-out were probably not initially meant to be boundaries).

Even if they intended, very very late on, to re-build at a later date, they could easily have saved a version with the track layout, and then publish a version without the redundant trackage. But that would have taken time - like, a couple of hours extra to do and validate, even at a very late stage.... I am not kidding.

I have no idea why they rushed it in such an extreme way. I really would not want to speculate on that.

The only other alternative explanation, which even I find too difficult and implausible to contemplate is that this is the standard at which they now build out their route DLC, and they consider it to be completely acceptable.

 

I don't think driving pixels on a screen into other pixels on a screen is going to put anyone in real harm. If it does in some allegorical way I hadn't thought of, then maybe better don't, that's right.

Sorry, maybe dark humour had run away with me on that one. George Carlin would probably have done a better job making it sound funny.

 

I think you'd have to be really pushing the boundaries of overreaction to actually consider driving a virtual train into a virtual shed as an actual real world threat. They can't even get PSN trophies to work, I imagine building voodoo properties into the route buildings would be a little out of scope.

 

It's OK. I've made a joke that didn't work well with the audience. If the vast majority complains, chances are, it really was a bad joke. Or, in other contexts, a bad.. let's say, trainsim DLC.

 

No, for me I have already done 700+ miles in it. So it is adding to the previous one(s)in the list

 

Now that’s just bad...

 

You really can’t make jokes.

 

DTG don't seem to be able to make bug free, value for money dlc either, swings and roundabouts..

 

I fail to see what you bring to the discussion, short one liners often with Matt said this Matt told me that with no point to them at all.

Everything in DTG land is full of gold, honey and unicorns, despite a massive c Ock up and a kick in the teeth by DTG you don't pass any kind of constructive criticism or any criticism at all despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Maybe you think Matt is your best friend and you don't want to upset him in anyway?
Seems strange to me.

 

*Shots fired*

 

So they released an unfinished product that we all know they will never finish? They have never added anything of this nature to previous TSW releases, so I don't expect this to be fixed. I tried to be positive but this one was too much for me. They provided a map in which half the displayed trackage is unusable? Just wow.

 

Let's get this thread back on track, any update from DTG yet?

 

Still no update from DTG as of 14:00 Tuesday, today. Really don’t know what or why is taking them so long to update us on what is happening/happened?

 

It's disrespectful how much time has passed and not a word has been said by DTG. As if they just don't care and will ride out this storm. At the very least they could have said something like they are aware of our concerns and are looking into it. Instead, all we get is silence.

 

NO, what's BAD is this dlc and the "whatever" attitude that Dovetail seems to have about the situation.

AT LEAST "THEARKERPORTIAN" DIDN'T RIP ANYONE OFF!!

​

 

In my opinion, after following the discussion and trying to evaluate the economic reasons behind this whole situation, I think there's still no update because it wouldn't make things much better.

The way I see it this DLC was originally planned with all sidings and industries which are shown in the map. But it couldn't be finished in time because...
... maybe it turned out to be more work than originally planned
... some of the route builders got sick
... the attention to detail was too high to stick to the release plan
... something else.

But the reason doesn't really matter. The result is here. As we can spot from the pics or even noticed ourselves it seems to be quite a massive amount of work left on that route for including all of the areas correctly.
Yet I don't think this massive amount of additional work is part of their working schedules for this year. They will have some resources planned for bug fixes and maybe even development of new features but this? This wasn't expected.

And this hurts a bit to write because I fear there are very good reasons NOT to alter the current working schedule.

There was written DTG would be quite short of money. The necessity of public money is definitely a sign for that, even not so uncommon in gaming industry.
If you rule a company that is in such a state your short and middle-term goals are gaining more money for a more stable economical situation. Cost whatever needs.

And sticking to the plan with personal resources, a clear vision of what is to come during the next month for the employees and the continous release of new DLCs will most likely generate more income for DTG than stopping this and working on bugfixes.

I'll try and give an example: 6 DLC a year with an average selling of 10,000 each still generate more income than 3 DLC with an average selling of 15,000 each due to higher quality.

I fear there have been calculations of what the best development plan of DLC for TSW could be like and the current one looked most promising.

With a higher amount of DLC releasing over the year you keep yourself in the media, people will notice, some people will give them a try, and so on.

With a lesser amount of DLC you can reach a higher quality and maybe higher sales for the single products but the risk of a generally decreased income is higher. And DTG doesn't seem to cope with that.

So I don't think there a resources for a huge update for OSD left. The usual bug fixes, yes. But not as much as should be done.

This is definitely not what a significant part of the community wants to hear right now. But it might be in some cases quite close to the actual situation.

I hope I could make myself a bit clear. I in person am very unpleased with this form of communication and would manage it differentely. What I experience in my daily work (where I'm not speaking English, but I think you noticed that already) it is extremely helpful to speak about problems, no matter what origin they are.
Creating transparency can be a vital part of creating progress.

But as there's a lack of communication even to really constructive feedback where users try to help as much as they can I doubt that this will be the primary strategy for now.

These are my thoughts...

Edit: So as a summary - I wouldn't expect an official statement during the next days. There will be an update, as it's always be, and maybe a bit earlier than usual or a bit more extensive. And maybe some sort of statement will be released before the patch notes. But I wouldn't expect more. In fact, more wasn't promised anyway...

 

You speak better English than some of my neighbors and your point is well taken.

 

Well - thank you for this very well articulated post. (Seriously, I have worked across the whole of Europe, and your writing is absolutely fine.)

Your post does make me think. And I didn't want to speculate (see my earlier post) about why the build-out of OSD was dramatically rushed in the end (and well under specification), before release... (in my opinion). But I did actually consider buying all of the remaining DLC on PS4, plus (for the first time) copies of TSW on PC and TS2020 on PC, and a few DLCs... I am talking about a few hundred GBP in total... for three reasons:

1. To check out the difference with the PC products (and I can afford to...)
2. To do my bit to boost the coffers (sorry - purse/treasury) at DTG
3. To buy the stuff now, in case it suddenly becomes unavailable for purchase... ;-O

But you also have to draw the line somewhere, no matter how much of a fan you are. You can't keep on supporting unfinished and broken content (that remains unfixed years later)... for years and years... or that's what you'll continue to get.... for years and years. Although - maybe that is better than nothing....? ;-(

Re communication - I do think that they should say something and soon, but what do you want them to say? What will be enough...?

Finally - as I have posted on another thread (the positive one...) - the PS4 ratings for OSD are a little higher than 4.5 /5 stars (about x100 sample size). So, those buying on PS4, that can be bothered to rate the DLC... really do like it. Makes you think, doesn't it....?

 

One thing to consider, based on my time working in the arts, is that there are probably a lot of people within DTG that are as frustrated and disappointed with final products entering the marketplace in semi-finished state due to deadlines and pressure from management, or things just not going to plan. A lot of DTG's workforce are creative people and creative people care a great deal about the quality of their work, and I'm sure a lot of them would want a better product than this going out.

 

I've said enough about casual console kiddies over the time... thanks for confirming my prejudices once again.

 

Yes. They must be heartbroken (spoken earnestly). When the creatives fully join with the techs, you get something like TVL (or MSB), which is a joy to behold... Maybe TVL will be the pinnacle of what DTG achieve,... but I do hope they go on to do even greater things.....

 

They have the power to change that if they really wanted to. If like you say, a lot of DTG’s workforce care a great deal they should speak with management addressing their and our concerns and explain that taking more time to produce a quality product pays dividends in the long run rather than a half arsed product.

Everyone wants money now but to ensure a long term product continually makes money you’ve got to take time now to ensure you get to the “long term”. If DTG continue with this way then it’ll be bye bye.

 

Given the backlash on here it may be worth them saying, "Ok, we've messed up. The route released wasn't the route we wanted to create, it's not the route we marketed, and it's not the route that our loyal fanbase deserves. So, here's what we're going to do; the development resource on our next DLC is going to be postponed by a month to allow our team to finish and open up all of the yards. We'll update the DLC to include all of the illustrated tracks when we're finished. We're sorry, it won't happen again."

Then, when the next DLC comes out and it does happen again – because that leopard ain't changing its spots – we'll have the option of saying either:

a) They've done it again, let's go through the whole process again and demonstrate we're not happy with this to get them to finish it, or
b) They've done it again, let's keep quiet or they'll delay the next half-finished DLC by a month again and I can't wait to give them my money.

 

Hi everyone!

Following on from our previous post, we wanted to take a moment to discuss the concerns you’ve raised with us about the representation of the map in Oakville.


We’ve briefly talked before, in previous articles, how we make our routes but to provide a basic recap: Typically, we have a clear idea of the route we want to make and, as a starting point, highlight the key areas that are important to delivering an experience our players will find interesting. In the course of that planning work and building the foundation, it’s not always clear what the player will see from the driving/walking perspective and so, it’s not until we build out that scenery we have an idea on what areas of the route need additional effort. This is to ensure there are no empty spaces where there shouldn’t be such as making sure key buildings are where they’re supposed to be. Once that work is in place we then define the areas that are important for the gameplay we want to represent – i.e. areas of background scenery that are there to fill in the blank spaces between what’s next to the track and further away.


Oakville inherently contains a large amount of trackwork that we originally did not intend to include. We felt that much of the interesting operational area and important aspects of the route are represented. However, in building out the scenery, we were unable to avoid including other areas and, wrongly, considered this to be entirely background scenery. We appreciate that there are several things we could have done a better job with, such as ensuring the map was clearer from the outset, highlighting what is included, just as a starting point.

We hold our hands up to this and our team is already working on the representation of accessible areas on maps for Oakville and factoring the concerns raised for all future add-ons so they remain clear and informative. We'll be back with an update when we're ready.

We certainly regret any disappointment caused and we’ll try to do a better job in future.

A patch is available today that fixes a couple of other issues that have been raised since launch. Patch notes can be found here: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-sim-world-pc-updates.15077/

 

Well - the console market is the market that will probably save both TSW and TS2020, for those that are interested in keeping it all alive...

 

Nice to hear!