Are DTG slowly hinting that TSW is actually an arcade game as opposed to a simulator..? Heard in this video at 08:30, this is the first time I’ve heard TSW being referred to as a ‘video game’. This worries me as I fear they may veer their focus from the simulation and accuracy side of things (such as sounds and physics) to the more ‘fun’ side of things such as collectibles, medals, points etc. I may be being paranoid at it all but I really hope what I said above isn’t true, for the sake of keeping things realistic and as true to life as possible. As well as not abandoning their simulation players for casual players.
Side note: that video was a great watch! But its pretty clear to see that Geoff is a casual guy who doesn't play these sort of games often, if at all. Calling it a video game just gets the point across quicker I suppose, but it can easily be used interchangably in normal conversation. Is this reading too much into words? Yeaaaah...sort of. Really, I don't think its that much of a big deal anyways. Sure there's fun things like collectibles, but the main purpose of those are to encourage exploration of the route, they dont necessarily take away from all the other simulation features because they're still there. TSW exists in this weird gray area between a full-fledged study level sim...and a game that just has a throttle/brake controller and maybe a reverser. It just happens to cater to both audiences, and it seems that they intend to keep it that way for the foreseeable future.
Before calling TSW an "arcade game", may I remind you that it has no 'simple controls' option like Train Simulator or Trainz Railroad Simulator have?
...I personally wouldn’t call TSW (2020 for me) a video/arcade game. What with simulated loco startup/shutdown procedures, auto/indep and in some cases dyn brakes, lighting controls, MU and even DPU operation- there is plenty of simulation going on in this ‘game’ for me. And I haven’t even covered any of the German routes yet, with their complex safety systems.
What you have just said bascially confirms the countless lies dtg continue to make which is just terrible to do to it's customers. It's nice that Sam bascially lied about why the editior can't be implemented. What a joke. I hope simrail can be a huge competitor to tsw2 and dovetail so they can get they're act together
Well it's pretty much true and clear that they've lied and continued to lie mate. Perhaps if you read delta who's post that I quoted you will understand why I'm saying that. Hell that person worked in unreal
I stopped reading his post when he used the words "most people" when he doesn't have any evidence that most people are anything!
Ok it may not be most people but if he worked with unreal, he is telling the true potential of the engine that dovetail clearly aren't trying to do so you shouldn't say that I like to use "lie" a lot. I will only say lie when it's clear the company has lied. How about read his post and you'll see why I said that mate
So he comes into a forum where people are upset and in active discussion as to why... and says that no-one is upset. Interesting... A poll conducted twice over the span of 2 years showed and increased negative reception to DTG communication : https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/poll-2-years-later-has-anything-changed.22570/#post-133429 A discussion on the overall player numbers for PC which conclusively show that TS Classic is still more popular for that particular market : https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/tsw-just-not-cutting-it-with-the-pc-crowd.27426/ The following TSW2 DLCs with mixed ratings (roughly less than 65%) : Isle of Wight Br Class 20 LIRR M3 Hauptstreke Rhein Ruhr Class 31 Penn Corridor Tees Valley Main Spessart Bahn DB BR 155 DB BR 182 LIRR Ruhr Sieg Nord Rapid Transit Anyway... I've made my peace and given my feedback. Stuck by for 10 years. Up to DTG if they want to improve.
Also perhaps something Sam should see and address (I do think in this case here, he has been taken badly out of context) : https://www.reddit.com/r/trainsim/comments/j9tvzw/psa_for_anyone_considering_tsw2_especially_those/
Sometimes I get the feeling that some people don’t regard console players as part of ‘the community’ as if the community is full of set-in-their-ways over 70s who still heat their houses with coal and fear outsiders based on their lack of tweed clothing and have been playing train simulators since they were made of wood.
Some of those aren't great examples, for Tees Valley while does have two negative reviews neither are really worth taking seriously. One's someone that couldn't figure out how to download it, and the other's from some foreigner that's leaving a generic small blurb about the livery designer that he's done with many products. The BR Class 20 only has four reviews, and the only negative one is that person leaving the blurb about the livery design again. Neither I'd say are great example of a mixed reaction as both of those issues are know things that you'd know about if you look on the TSW2 website or the Steam forums. It is kind of like saying the AC4400 for TS Classic being considered mixed because of the people who can't figure out how to put in the reverser even though the manual tells you how. I don't see why you didn't note the TSW versions as they would be a way better representation as they tend to have more and higher quality reviews. You could also still note the major examples of TSW2 versions with major negative reviews, PC & MSB are good examples of that.
I'm not trying to make excuses for anyone, but he's only part right about Unreal - it is easy to get things going quickly with it, but it's very difficult to optimise and get things running well, especially when you start adding in plugins and AI and multiple other systems behind the scenes. If you don't believe me, take a look at PUBG for example, which also runs on Unreal. That is a much more popular game with a bigger team and a bigger budget, yet still had many years of very poor performance compared to other titles and a lot of similar complaints from its vocal user base. So yes you're right, TSW doesn't meet the true potential of the Unreal Engine, just like PUBG doesn't, and I'm sure the teams on both products underestimated the effort required to get there. But that doesn't mean anyone lied about it (over optimistic, maybe...), and it doesn't mean that there's an easy fix for closing that gap that they're not doing. It just takes some highly skilled people who understand the engine inside out, and time to figure out all the bottlenecks and get it nicely fine tuned. And time is something that both us and their owners / shareholders / etc aren't very good at providing.
Fair critique, and ofc I acknowledge that there will be people who are perfectly fine with TSW. But it is problematic for a first time player to come into something like the community forums or see a negative bit of DLC to see that.
LIes, damned lies and statistics. You can prove anything with statistics, especially when you take them out of context or mould them to suit your argument. Just because there are maybe three dozen vocal complainers on here, that means that the community is upset! Who is the community, how many does it number and where does it reside? That is what I would like to know.
That assumes all first-time players think or perceive or act or feel the same way about posts or reviews. Reviews aren't a measure of what I like, they're a measure of what someone else disliked. I'm relatively new to the game, yet have found plenty of enjoyment in DLC that some have been quite critical of. Is the DLC perfect? No. Does it have bugs? Yes. But I don't let its issues ruin my enjoyment. Might the bad reviews and negative posts be a problem for some first-time players? Sure. But it's not problematic for all first-time players (in the same way that the entire community is not upset, just some are upset).
I often don't trust the opinion of the technicians. Why should I trust the opinion of the people? Would you really decide the quality of a product based on feedback alone? It would be naive don't you think? Where is it written that everyone is endowed with the right analytical spirit and that the majority is synonymous with quality? Does the fact that Fortnite is one of the most played (and also awarded) titles prove anything to you? Is Fortnite a great game because many people like it?
So is things like "This loco DLC requires X route add on to use" or the high price addons are, both certainly deter new users, however I don't think that makes the business model bad because of that. Developers for MSTS used the same type of model, which is why DTG & predecessors used it in the first place. Likewise companies like PMDG also do similar things, making expansion packages for their addons, which are already very expensive. People back with MSTS or currently with PMDG would ultimately pin the blame on the buyer for not researching that a loco or plane addon requires something else to function. Ultimately enough people are ok with that model and pricing for them to stay in business, and with something niche like simulation that's fine. A beginner is much better served buying something like Derail Valley anyways, or indeed just buying the base package for TS Classic or TSW without ever dealing with all the DLC.
Suffice to say, the context makes a lot more sense, but it really doesn't matter - I respect the opinion of the people on Reddit and nothing I say will move it an inch. Back on topic, let's get this thread under control please. You all know we lock stuff down if you start arguing with each other. A debate is fine, but keep it civil. For those arguing whether the community is upset or not, that some people expect better is reason enough to consider them an "upset" portion of the community. To that end, we will hear them out and report their grievances to those who decide where our efforts should be applied. You want more from TSW than it is currently delivering. So do we.
It’s not that the “upset” portion expects better, but the “non-upset” portion are indifferent. I believe each portion desires better. We simply express ourselves differently.
We are waiting months for a fix DTG is focused on releasing in-house routes like Hauptstrecke munchen - Augsburg. Would hope they would focus getting the preserved collection sorted. Then focus on new routes.
Well they would make the excuse that if they put all their efforts on preserved collection, they can't make new content which is true. Preserved Collection does need to be sorted out as well but it's gonna take some time. I just wish that Dovetail would end their "release it now, fix it later" mindset because even new routes like the island line will have many problems and I wouldn't be surprised if the Munich To Ausberg route was riddled with problems. I mean heck that route for console players won't get additional services at launch because of issues. You would think with a new engine (although it's just a updated engine) that these problems wouldn't happen but it is what it is. I think that new route is being released too early in my opinion
DTG can’t please everyone. No matter what DTG prioritizes, someone is going to wish they did things differently. (I’m content with the balanced approach, where we get a few bug fixes, a few preserved collections, and a new route or two.)
It's very clear that those who want the best experience with tsw2 also expect it to be released with as few issues as possible but when new dlc is released and someone puts down there hard earned cash for the thrill of driving a new train on a new route and it becomes clear form playing it's just another overpriced dlc that been rushed out the door semi tested and barely playable,(i say overpriced because if it's released broken,why should anyone pay full price)This game has the halmarks of greatness but dtg chooses not to embrace it fully. PS:As for SAM i find he is a man of honor and i don't believe for 1 second he would ever lies to us,he's worked to hard to build up his hard earned good honest reputation for his youtube channel and woundn't risks loseing 5 years of effort by lieing to us for dove tail games
Many problems is subjective. I would have described the number as a few issues. The logic there seems to be, “DTG quality has been bad, is bad, and will be bad.” While it probably won’t be perfect, I think it probably also won’t be riddled with problems. That doesn’t seem fair. It’s a memory constraint, not a bug. They let us know about it in advance and they are trying to come up with a solution. I get that you’re upset, but I hope your goal isn’t to also discourage the rest of us.
My sentiments exactly. And it doesn't seem to matter how understanding the Community Managers are or how many explanations and assurances they offer, some people insist on being tone-deaf.
Rushed out the door? DTG has been doing that, although they acknowledged it, and are taking another look at how things are done. Semi-tested? Unlikely. Probably well-tested with bugs reported, but little or no time to fix them. Barely playable? Hasn’t been my experience at all. Things have been quite playable, including the most recent IoW. Overpriced? Not everyone’s opinion. Reasonably priced, despite bugs which should get fixed. (And how do you pay people to fix bugs, if you think DLC should have been sold for less due to bugs?)
I can't tell you what opinions you should come to, but just as three vocal people have made it known they disagree with my assumption on a more negative status quo of the game, I would also point out that the opposite is neither true and just as naive. It's also hard for me to answer that last statement, because Fortnite is not TSW, and its needs, desires and context and technical competency are completely different to TSW. I'm very happy if people disagree with me and enjoy the game. That is one less person who isn't as frustrated as me. But where possible, I have tried to cite where there has been "controversial" community opinion, common themes and my personal feedback and experiences on how to improve it. Edit - Also after reading Sam's post, I will respectfully leave it at that and go on a cooldown.
"Yeah, so we tested the game, made a comprehensive list of bugs, and then released it without fixing any of them." Totally an acceptable way to do business.
I really will never abide any complaints about price. There are a large number of titles by triple A developers that have all sorts of DLC available for purchase, the sum total of which within a single title would amount to thousands of pounds, and yet that DLC would give little more than snazzier outfits for a players avatar, a shinier gun, some upgrades to a player, certainly never an entirely new accurately modelled map and vehicles with something approaching real world behaviours, sounds, and physics. It's actually laugh out loud laughable to me when people complain about price of TSW DLC as though DTG are raking it in to pay for a new Caribbean island for their weekly 'let's set fire to all the money we're making from rail simulator DLC and laugh at the fools giving it to us' party. For the amount of hours enjoyment I get from this game, it is hands down the best value for money video game I have ever played.
The question wasn’t about what is acceptable. The question was about whether or not QA did their job.
The tone of your post indicated that you are generally happy with the state that these products are being released in, and that you find this to be acceptable.
Please don’t confuse my “generally happy” with “generally happy with the state that these products are released in.” I still can enjoy playing the game in spite of the bugs (because they are not game-breaking or annoying for me). I am not angry or upset about the bugs. But I would like the bugs to be fixed, please.
Dove tail games is a company where some true train fans are found and they want to share there love of trains with others by creating a world where we can all share in there passion for driving great trains on great routes,yet because of issues that can take someone playing in the world they created out of it,we all loses are sanity and come here to vent,Face it in the end we all have are own opinions about this games strengths and weaknesses,and will very unlikely be able to convince anyone whos right or wrong about anything said here.
I don't get why they have to rush things out if they don't have too. I know some people would rather wait for a product with little bugs as possible instead of a product that has massive problems. I mean they shouldn't be surprised why some people are annoyed with them
I'd agree wholeheartedly, fom the outside it would appear to make no sense whatsoever. Putting something out when it is obviously not ready (i.e. glaring visible defects, as opposed to infrequent random bugs hard to spot) just means: 1. Likely alienating large numbers of customers. 2. Needless permanent loss of sales that would otherwise have had made - due to needless self inflicted bad reviews of rushed releases. 3. Alienate the QA Team. We're told they're very good at doing their job & spotting said bugs. But rather that it's a case of their work (flagging problems) is ignored & products pushed out anyway. If true, why should they then get flack for 'missing' said bugs. Surely must make QA team members feel like what's the point in their work. 4. Alienate hardworking conscientious members of the artist/development team, who feel peeved for releasing a product they know not ready, & doing so will unfairly reflect badly on them. i.e. they've put lots of hard work into something they desperately want to be good, but not given the chance to finish it off to their satisfaction & enjoy the results of a final high quality product. That must be soul destroying for any hardworking talented team! 5. Needlessly damage the company reputation. Repeated again, & again, & again.....! On face value, it therefore doesn't seem a particularly wise strategy. No wonder it has so many people baffled.
I am sure we all want better, I could provide a long list of stuff I would like to see. And obviously we don't want to see bugs and we want to see them fixed but I think there has to be some kind of expectation management. I don't like the insinuation that just because you aren't one of the more vocal complainers that somehow you are just a casual gamer with little interest in trains who doesn't want to see anything improved and you are happy with your lot, I am a very serious railway enthusiast and apart from Football Manager, train sims are the only other "games" I play. But all these threads do is go round in circles and if I was a newcomer and this was my first visit, it would likely put me off buying the sim as all you read is how awful it is, is this really the vision the "community" wants to project? A few posters just don't seem to offer a balance, it is as though the sim is an awful, unusable mess and they can't find anything good about it, so why do you even still use it? I also think personal attacks on DTG staff in particular are especially unedifying, yet it is allowed!
I totally agree, although for me, it's more likely to put me off wanting to join the community than it is to put me off buying the game - I already knew my tastes were niche enough that I'd enjoy playing a train sim, and knew that I had "less exacting" tastes than a lot of people I've met in this hobby, so would be more tolerant of bugs as long as it started and I could drag the train from one end of the line to the other. However, seeing a wall full of posts like "Matt ran over my goldfish 8 years ago, never buying a DTG product again", or "The transducer grommit only rotates 15 degs instead of 19degs, TSW is doomed if they don't fix this bug first", or "Motion blur causes Covid!!!", or whatever, makes me want to back away slowly long before I consider if there are any valid points in any of the complaints. And the fact that DTGProtagonist still tries to keep explaining things to people instead of going "to heck with it" and burning the place to the ground, just makes me respect him and his thankless task even more.
Priceless!! Thank you! The forum's a good place to learn and to report errors or bugs in the game. But creating the impression that the game is awful, or an unusable mess, serves no useful purpose. I suspect that most of us manage to work our way around the various errors, bugs and omissions and enjoy the railway experience. I know I do.
DTG Protagonist tell us how you really feel about editors and modders.Can't be used by who - console players?
It isn't a good strategy. Now I could just stop supporting dtg but I want and I think everyone wants to see this game be improved massively and you would think all the criticisms they are getting would make them change they're ways. I will continue to be very critical of the company until they make the proper business decisions and improve as a company
