1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Can You Spot The Mistake?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Trim, Mar 4, 2020.

  1. Trim

    Trim Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2020
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    183
    NTP 19:48 Manchester Victoria to Leeds. The other train is the 19:50 empty coaching stock move from Newton Heath to Manchester Victoria and this is Miles Platting station, where the Ashton line diverges to the right, which is the route my train takes.
    upload_2020-3-4_21-3-53.jpeg

    This picture may give you a clue, taken a few seconds later.
    upload_2020-3-4_21-7-18.jpeg

    Quite honestly, I think the signalman was being reckless in the second picture (the DMU was doing about 15-20 mph), but I've checked the signalling diagram and I reckon it's physically possible; whether or not it's against the rules I could not say.

    Here's a not particularly clear signalling diagram:
    upload_2020-3-4_22-18-32.jpeg
    And here is the very interesting video of Miles Platting Station Junction signalbox in operation that I captured the signalling diagram from:
    I particularly like it around 10:04 where signal 78 shows one of the worst "clear" aspects I have ever seen.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2019
    Messages:
    524
    Likes Received:
    599
    Pretty slick on the levers. Probably felt guilty for holding up a class 1 for an ECS move.
     
  3. Trim

    Trim Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2020
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    183
    Rather too slick for my liking. It's returning the up home signal 8 [Edit: This should be signal 4: I misread the signalling diagram and was misled by the game's representation of this signal] to danger behind the DMU that I was rather concerned about, since I recall that in a set of rules I had to work to we weren't allowed to return a signal to danger till all of the train had passed beyond everything that that signal protected, which in this case would be the crossing (signal 8 being clear obviously prevents signal 86, the signal I was stopped at, from being cleared). However, I can find no such rule in the 1972 BR rule book or 1960 signalling regulations (which were essentially what still applied in 1983). In any case, track circuit T6 (the yellow one in the diagram) prevents signal 86 from being cleared until the rear bogie of the DMU has passed off the crossing, although the rear of the train would still be foul of the down Ashton line at that point.

    As you say, slick working. Just look how far it is from lever 8 (immediately alongside the signalman's backside in the YouTube still) to lever 86, well out of shot to the right, the nearest lever in view being 65 (blue).

    However, there is something in the first picture that simply should not be allowed to happen, at least not in Britain in the era of mechanically interlocked signalling (I know very little about modern electronically-controlled signalling). Something apart from the signalman's obvious ignorance of Regulation 4.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2019
    Messages:
    524
    Likes Received:
    599
    Oh yes. Only looked at the thumbnail until now. Blimey.
     
  5. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    858
    The problem is that there isn't any signalman because the signal box at Miles Platting junction is missing! ;)
    In fact there's no boxes there at all, I think there were 3 (?).

    I believe it should be by the signal. I've never been sure why it wasn't modeled since it was there in 1983 (it wasn't closed until 98).
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
  6. jetgriff

    jetgriff Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2019
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    226
    it should have been be impossible for the track to be set for the Man - Leeds to be set as shown (down Ashton, it could only be set for the down Oldham for the signal 4 or 6 to be cleared for the DMU to cross junction. in front of it, the frame locking would not allow this.
    But, it's only a game....
     
  7. Trim

    Trim Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2020
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    183
    It is a game, so do one gets hurt, it is true, However, it is a sim; it is meant to be realistic and to me and many other players our enjoyment comes from it being immersive, and anything that breaks this has a considerable detrimental effect.

    Furthermore, a train driving sim really requires a realistic signalling system to enable us to drive in anything approaching a realsitic manner. In this particular case, what initially puzzled me was that I should arrive at the junction signal at danger without ever having been cautioned at all. The signal immediately before this one was a single semaphore stop signal, so, without having formally learnt the route and read the sectional appendix I thought it plausible, if unlikely, that I might not need to be cautioned. However, as soon as I saw the position of the points, my immediate thought was that the route's designers must be completely ignorant of even the most basic precepts of protopypical railway operation. To be honest, I found this rather upsetting, for what else might that mean I would encounter in future. I have already pointed out several signalling and routing errors, but overlaps are such a basic provision of British railway signalling that I found this one impossible to overlook.

    It isn't just the signalman ignoring Regulation 4 (which I notice he does in the opposite direction as well; with AI drivers, the express beats the ECS to the junction and gets signalled through, but the DMU is allowed right up to signal 4, or 8 as it is in game), but the very basic principles of interlocking that have been ignored. In reality, it is not merely that the signalman would not have been able to clear signal 4 or 6 with the down points set for the Ashton line; it would not have been possible to set the down points for the Ashton line while the up points were set for the Oldham line. The only permissable combinations would be both set for Oldham, both set for Ashton or the down line set for Oldham and the up line set for Ashton. In this particular scenrio, both should have been set for Oldham, and to set my route to Ashton, the signalman would have had to set the up points to the Aston line (lever 48 normal) before he could have set the down points (lever 49 reverse), and at no time could both levers be set reverse. You can see exactly this in the video at 7:14 where the signalman sets 48 nornal before pulling 49, which operates the mototrised point and FPL.

    Of course, now that I have found a signalling diagram, I discover I should have been cautioned at distant signal 88 (this, too, would have been interlocked; the signalman could not have cleared 88 even if he had wanted to), and probably I would have been stopped at 91 since it would not be worthwhile cautioning me there and allowing me to draw forwards to 86.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  8. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    858
    All good thoughts and observations Trim.

    I suppose it comes down to how deep and exacting the simulation should go.

    In this case. Was the junction signal at danger? Yes, so you should stop. Could you proceed past it? No, since the session would end. So generally conditions were workable, although not entirely realistically.

    This makes sense but perhaps letting you draw forward brings more of the load off the incline allowing for an easier restart.
    Even today some freight workings are rerouted away from Miles Platting to avoid problems.

    Personally I can ignore the points, my immersion killing feature still is, like I mentioned above, that the entire 92 lever signal box is missing from the location. Perhaps the proximity of the box and signal was a problem.
    Miles_Platting_junction_and_signalbox_1989_-_geograph.org.uk_-_820271.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 4
  9. Trim

    Trim Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2020
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    183
    It is a curious omission, isn't it, seeing that the signal box is so prominent in that location, and other signalboxes have been modelled. I don't think this would win any prizes in the TSW vs Real Life thread:
    upload_2020-3-7_14-6-51.jpeg

    I didn't really know this route. I very much liked Manchester Victoria station with all that timbering making it look like an old warehouse (with much the same fire risk, it seemed), but my visits to Manchester focussed more on the Woodhead line, so I don't notice inaccuracies in the graphical depiction of most of NTP. But where are Victoria's booking office and magnificent tile map and war memorial?
    https://flic.kr/p/8rGSWb
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
    • Like Like x 3
  10. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    858
    Those are impressive features aren't they.

    I'm not that familiar with the route either, it's just that I've watched a few videos taken at Miles Platting and have thought "Hang on there's something missing here". So although originally I didn't know it was missing now that I do it irritates me that when I raise my hand to wave to the imaginary signalman I have to imagine a virtual box as well. :D

    I believe there were boxes on the junctions to the north and east as well, nether are present. I think perhaps DTG started at Leeds and ran out of signalboxes before they got to Manchester.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2019
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    396
    As a local, I've just noticed the CIS building is missing too! It's that large high rise just above the Pacer in the photograph. It's not a recent addition, it was there in the 1960s. The footbridge which provides access to the platforms at Victoria in TSW was in reality for parcels trolleys and could only be reached by lifts. It was staff only as well. There was a long wide ramp down from the concourse alongside platform 11 which led to a subway. Platforms 12 to 15 were accessed by stairs from the subway and I think 16 and 17 had a ramp. Not very visible and understandable that they used the footbridge. The missing signalboxes are more noticeable and even worse is passing totally dark signalboxes at night.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    2,505
    Another thing with the comparison above, why do the tracks and ballast look so clean for?! I know there are oily and dirty tracks in station and yard areas but that’s about it.

    Generally most things in TSW are too clean and pristine looking. We need things looking more dirty, used and weathered to make it seem more realistic.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Dave Mel

    Dave Mel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    441
    How could they leave Manchesters Iconic CIS building out. im a Mancunian and i remember the ballroom on the the top of the CIS i can just about remember it being opened in 1964.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. jetgriff

    jetgriff Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2019
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    226
    exactly, you cannot pass a signal at danger in TSW so no danger was there.. If we want 100% accuracy in the game we must be prepared to pay for the extra time developers need to put in.
     
  15. Trim

    Trim Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2020
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    183
    I think you mean that it's a video game, so no danger was there. The pixellated people are in just as much danger from defective signalling in the game as real people would be in real life:
    upload_2020-3-7_22-21-37.jpeg

    Why do all my collisions involve class 40s?
    Yes, as you can see, rather too quick :o

    Of course, if the points had been interlocked correctly, then the DMU would have to clear track circuit T7 (blue) before the up junction points 48 could be reset normal and the down junction points 49 set reverse. This would have provided all the protection that was needed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2019
    Messages:
    524
    Likes Received:
    599
    It's clear we all have different priorities about immersion. The signalling errors bug me but I'd say the priority signalling fixes are the ones that actually stop you from completing a service.

    For NTP, I'd like the 47 on consoles fixed before anything else though.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  17. Dave Mel

    Dave Mel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    441
    Agree the 47 needs something serious doing to it, but like DTG its not a priority so it will never get fixed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    1,389
    Likes Received:
    2,682
    I think that with the 47, they have tried to fix it but can’t. Matt has made reference to it in a stream saying their simulation program is acting differently on consoles and PC with the same settings, and they can’t figure out why. Whether they are still putting time into finding out why is another thing.
     
  19. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2017
    Messages:
    1,458
    Likes Received:
    1,258
    Does all of this blathering really beat actually driving simulated trains?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    2,505
    I mean it seems you clearly don’t care about the accuracy of routes and just want to drive trains from A to B...

    After all it is a simulator which is supposed to represent how it is in real life.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  21. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,286
    Likes Received:
    833
    Not only is Miles Platting Signal Box missing s but so is Phillips Park 1, Park Station, Baguley Fold, Ashton Moss North and OA&GB Junction.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page