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Class 47 Lacks Power Ntp

Discussion in 'Technical Reports' started by stujoy, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The power gauge on the HUD only ever gets half way round on the 47 locomotive in Northern Trans Pennine (on the PS4) and the train lacks the power to reach line speed on the hills at full throttle. Driving the 45 on the same service, the train whizzes up the hills no problem. In real life the 47 is more powerful than the 45. Has anyone else had this issue?
     
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  2. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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  3. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

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    If you want a quick response just point out that you're having difficulty purchasing a dlc..
     
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  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    It was noted on a stream a few months back. They don't blanket coverage their responses
     
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  5. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    A few months back and still not fixed despite TSW2020 being released since which includes NTP. That's real committment to not being arsed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
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  6. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    TSW is BUNDLED with NTP which is different
    Not saying they shouldn't have fixed it of course. I know they were advertising for a new physics programmer earlier this year
     
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  7. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Well-Known Member

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    Hi everyone, thanks for letting us know, as you said we are aware of the issue and the team will be looking at it, although I have no ETA at the moment.
     
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  8. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Can you please get back to us confirming when this will be sorted ASAP. Clearly you've been aware for a while, so we expect it to be fixed in the very near future. Thanks.
     
  9. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I ran into this the other day, just assumed the train was a bit rubbish! :D
     
  10. Fitz

    Fitz Member

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    It's been very clear something is wrong with the 47 since WSR released, I was hoping it would be fixed by NTP but it's still the same in 2020. It's the longest most obvious but in the console version of the sim a very long time now.
     
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  11. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I think that you've hit the nail on the head, with respect to the HUD (that wasn't meant to rhyme). And in your first post on this Forum! Well done! (I think). Skip to the end of this post, if you want to see why I think this, and if, like many others mayhaps, you don't want to read a long post..

    My general view is that there isn't much wrong with this (version of?) the Class 47. It's only slightly more powerful than the 45 (in service), is significantly lighter (affecting adhesion negatively), with a different axle/wheel arrangement (that might balance out the weight difference, anyway), and it has different gearing (originally the engines were originally more powerful, they got derated in service, almost down to parity with the 45s) - the 47 also has a higher top speed (eventually....). It is possible to achieve 95mph on NTP.

    In short - the locos are quite similar in some respects, but very different in many others. So, when going and up down the gradients, I don't experience anything that I wouldn't expect. My eyebrows do, however, get slightly raised when the Class 47 finds it hard to get over 40mph on some of the long supposedly flat sections on NTP, with a short rake of coaching stock - and it seems to me like something is braking the train along these sections (I checked this wasn't happening, including checking the hand-brake in the other cab, which should be linked anyway, but you never know....) - I think there is something wrong with the route here, i.e. that there is a gradient, even when the HUD reports it as pool-table level.

    I haven't repeated the "user" testing referred to in the link provided in the first reply to this thread - and everything that I read there (even the bits that seem contradictory), seems to be well founded and reasonable. It's a shame that DTG didn't carry out this testing.

    Please note that although I have NTP, I don't have the "freight pack" (and unfortunately won't be able to purchase this until it is basically free, as I suspect that it was originally meant to be part of NTP, before DTG realised that the pack didn't even match their very low standards for publication). I would like DTG to fix the problems with this pack, and then issue it for free, as part of the original NTP pack. But of course "I want" won't necessarily result in "I will get".

    Anyway - back to the OP's point. It's the HUD. It's broken. They have used the wrong scale on it, and the "green zone" spans the wrong amount of amps. There shouldn't even be an orange zone, but if this is meant to represent the yellow zone, it should start at 4200A, and not somewhere that is actually completely off the real scale (around 10kA?). I say, this, assuming that the guys that did the artwork, and the original simulation testing, got it right. But the guys that overlaid the HUD, got it completely wrong. And you can clearly see this in the images below (especially the last one).

    You need to drive the 47 according to the ammeter on the desk, and ignore the one on the HUD. You will then find that you have less wheelslip (which should reduce the amps because of back EMF), and/or have more power delivered to the rail. I suspect that this different driving style (and use of the correct ammeter) explains the differences in the analyses in the other thread:

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/class-47-ntp-route-slow.16822/#post-83349

    ACTION (FOR DTG): DTG needs to get someone to fix the HUD, in particular, the scale for the ammeter. And possibly, they need to re-check the gradients along the route (and how they are displayed on the HUD).

    ACTION (FOR DTG): Release the freight pack to NTP owners as free DLC (after it has been fixed).


    Class 47 TM 3000A at 36mph.jpg

    Class 47 TM 3000A at 36mph.jpg

    Class 47 TM 3000A at 36mph.jpg

    Class 47 TM 5600A at 5mph.jpg

    Clas 47 TM at 5300A at 0mph.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    This was also the case for quite a lot of the TSx issues with brakes, motive power etc where it was much better to learn which gauges to read on the desk rather than relying on the HUD or even the position of the levers. I know engines are supposed to have their quirks, but not this bad!
     
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  13. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I have noticed the difference in the HUD ammeter and the desk ammeter in terms of range, but the Amp reading itself matches that on the desk ammeter so I think the HUD range difference has nothing to do with the performance and is more of a graphical error rather than related to any problem with the physics.

    I've never got the 47 into the red on the HUD and never managed to generate any wheelslip. Anyone else?

    From memory, I don't think the 45 has a red zone on the desk either, but it does have one on the HUD. Again, just a graphics disparity. No big deal from my perspective.

    From the Class 47 Training Manual, traction motor circuit allowances are:
    8,000 A for brief periods of starting.
    6,500 A for 5 minutes in any hour.
    5,500 A for 15 minutes in any hour.
    4,260 A continuous rating (this is point of green/yellow transition on the desk ammeter).
    For overload situations, there's a de-compounding field rather than relays. This becomes energised at a predetermined high level (doesn't say what that level is but guess it's at above 9,000 A) and reduces traction motor current accordingly. Not seen evidence of such a system simulated in TSW but never got Amps that high.

    I don't think I've operated the 47 outside those parameters even with a heavy hand on the regulator and from my experience it's not short on Amps. It's just that they don't appear to be used anywhere.

    There's a Vinnie on here that has mentioned the voltage being too low, but I've no idea where that information is found in the game. Obviously, Power = VA so even with the correct Amps, low Volts will create a shortfall in power.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  14. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I agree entirely with this - and I think it might encourage some people to drive the Class 47 well above 4260A, for the majority of the time. When the HUD ammeter needle passes the 9 o'clock position, the TMs are put beyond their continuous rating. Any reduction in power put to the rail, or the rate at which it is put to the rail, will have significant impacts on building/maintaining speed, on this challenging NTP route.

    What I don't know is the impact on performance (in real life) should you keep running at 5600A, if there is any impact (other than to speed up the need for maintenance. I have noticed that if you drop the throttle (and the current), until you see the speed start to come off, you can then notch back up (into another circuit...) and get a bit more speed.

    The physics seems okay/unsurprising to me. But I am very far from being an expert on this. And I have not done the freight stuff.

    You have a Class 47 manual at your disposal? Lucky man! I must admit, that despite me generally slating the outer package of this game, and some of the serious human customer service failings, the simulation always strikes me as being quite excellent. It's a game that makes me dig out things like my 1962 BTC "Diesel Traction Manual for Enginemen", just to see how they've described things like "Field Diversion" to steam engine drivers transitioning from footplate to controller desk. Must have been quite a shock...!

    Anything that actually makes me pick up a book and read it, and/or inspires me to research the development of the Type 4s, deserves some considerable merit. And TSW fits this description. £105,000 for a brand new Class 47, straight off the factory floor, anyone?

    I still wish DTG would fix that HUD though.....
     
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  15. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I imagine running over current has heat dissipation implications and risk of flashover IRL.

    I think we may be giving too much credit to DTG here. The physics are most likely simplified and approximated. If varying coefficients of friction, drag and things like ETH power draw are modelled, I'd be very surprised. All I know is the 47 just feels wrong in comparison to other locomotives.

    Class 47 Training Manual here:

    http://marksdtmcalib.omegaowners.com/Class_47_Loco/Class_47_Training_Manual.pdf
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  16. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Okies. Well, I don't know, either way. I will give it further thought and consideration when I am next using the 47.

    I don't know how far they take the simulation on power systems, but I assume that anything you can twiddle has the potential to make an impact.

    An example, which quite surprised me, was on the MSB freight services. Ground to a halt on a steep incline, with a rake of telescopics. Could not pull away again. But - switching off the air compressor and the TM blower, for a minute or two, seemed to provide the last bit of juice needed to overcome the inertia and get rolling. Totally counter-intuitive to me, but it worked again when I tested it again. Maybe there was something else happening that I don't understand (?) ...(yet).... but it seemed like a weird set of coincidences if it is something else, or my imagination... ;-)

    I would expect them to model friction - the difference between a dry rail and an icy rail can be a factor of ten. But maybe they don't. I am sure that I read somewehre that at least three different coeffs were used for different weather conditions....?

    Details on what is physically simulated would be useful to know - perhaps DTG could put in the manual.
     
  17. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I doubt things are simulated from engineering first principles but happy to be proved wrong. I suspect correction factors or curves are used as a surrogate for engineering calculation and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. For all practical purposes it's probably adequate for a game. However, I think there's some overthinking of what is going on behind the scenes.

    Anyway, let's hope DTG get it all sorted ASAP. Performance aside, I do like driving the duff.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  18. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Active Member

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    Generally everything is done from first principles in simugraph. In this case the locomotive is only misbehaving on console as I've said many times, on PC everything is perfectly in order. It should be pulling between about 3900-4400 ish Amps at full power from around 25 to 80mph and tail off after that.

    What seems to be happening on PS4/Xbox is for some bizarre reason the load regulator doesn't seem to be running up fully and stops about 40% of its maximum travel so the loco is in a near constant state of unloading, resulting in the loco rarely pulling the correct amps getting weaker and weaker towards the end of each divert stage. Quite why this is the case is a bit a mystery as in theory because the locomotive setups do not differ between the PC and console, and also it only effects the 47 as far as I can tell.
     
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  19. Vinnie

    Vinnie Active Member

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    Thanks for the clarification, I'm sure they will figure out how to solve this.

    It's good to point out that on WSR, the 47 also has this problem. NTP and WSR 47 sounds and feels just a bit different.
     
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  20. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Forgive my ignorance, but out of interest what is simugraph and where are you seeing information about the load regulator?

    Edit: Found some stuff about Simugraph. Looks to calculate interactions between primary M&E systems/components. I'd say the component inputs are based on a mix of empirical data where available, approximated where not and some variables are disregarded. I imagine the interaction between those components, at the very least, is based on sound engineering practice. Commercial simulation software I've used as a engineer (not the type that fix your washing machine) for over 25 years is all based on first principles and requires an awful lot of computing time and power. Well beyond any requirements for a game. After all, no one is going to die from a TSW simulation error.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
  21. xD 2Bad4You

    xD 2Bad4You Well-Known Member

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    Simugraph is the Simulation Engine Dovetail has written to simulate the Locos. You can get an Idea of how it looks in this Studio Update:
    https://live.dovetailgames.com/live...6.1035168826.1567746441-1832751018.1521552294

    And i believe he knows about the regulator because he has created this Loco for Dovetail. Not 100% sure but at least he has done some others like the 33, 08 for them.
     
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  22. InspectorTiger

    InspectorTiger Active Member

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    Graphical glitches notwithstanding, the 47 be weak. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a bug in the Simugraph, but it makes no sense at all that there should be any difference between PC and console here. I can't quite visualise a piece of code saying:

    Code:
    #ifdef CONSOLE
    class47MaxPowerPercent = 50
    #endif
    If DominusEdwardius is baffled, then I'm double-baffled.
     
  23. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Well, I managed to get the Class 47 to slip, quite easily, with a rake of eight coaches (see pictures below), on a Manchester to Leeds run. The first slip (just before Dewsbury) was with the loco still in forward motion but slowing up the slight incline, with the throttle suddenly jammed from notch 0 to notch 10. The other one (in the platform), was from a standstill, but with a 14% load on the train pipe.

    I did some other testing and made the following observations, which may or may not be useful to readers:

    - max speed attained was 105mph (this was despite stopping at three or four major stations), and at this speed the loco was pulling 2400A
    - max current seen was 6100A, pulling away from a stand, normally(ish) at Huddersfield (not including the slip tests at 7500A)

    To attain the max speed of 105mph, it was necessary to break the line's speed limits. If I had not stopped, then it might have gone a bit faster (down the hill to Dewsbury), but not by much.

    Generally speaking though, I had no problems with the 47. I noticed that when slowly increasing to full throttle the amps would peak out around 3600A, then gently fall a few hundred amps until a new speed threshold was met, and then you would see the current rising again. I am guessing that this is the field divert kicking in for each step in speed. Beyond 75mph the current dropped continuously until it reached 2400A. Re-caveat: I do not have freight for NTP - this is with a 200-250 ton consist.

    My experiences don't seem particularly unusual to me. (Although I note that Edwardius has given more detailed advice on this, indicating that my 3600A is a bit low). I am on PS4. Maybe the problem is just on XBox.... (or maybe my figures show there is something wrong on PS4...)? Either way, I can live with it for now (noting that I don't have freight...). I would still like the green part of the HUD fixed though.

    Train Sim World_20190905231552.jpg

    Train Sim World_20190905232146.jpg
     
  24. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Maybe having the door open helps? ;) Now try the same service with the 45 and see how you get on. It's in a different league. I should add that I've never tried to get wheelslip intentionally but only ever got it on the 40 and 45.

    I can only tolerate using the 47 on passenger, empty tanks and van services. I wonder if having the freight pack has unintended consequences on the 47.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
  25. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I looked at everything that I could find online about Simugraph, and it's "extremely visual" OO interface. I noticed that everything on there was internal to the locomotive (the screens I saw were loco screens after all), with outputs to the braking system, etc. Great for determining the loco's final outputs, triggering sounds, and modelling a bit of F=ma for the train behind, etc. But, can you give us an indication of what is physically modelled at the loco/world interface...?

    - drag from air resistance, rolling resistance, etc.?
    - longitundial friction on the rail, contact patch, etc..
    - drawbar forces and energy transmitted/stored through buffers
    - lateral track forces
    - dy/dq, lift, coning, crabbing etc.
    - suspension, spring rates, damping
    - physical vibration, resonance of vehicle structure

    How far do the rail vehicle dynamics go?

    I see that the Class 66 has TMs that can be isolated - do their axles all communicate forces with the track independently? I noticed that when I put the 47 into slip, that if you really gave it a hard time, that some of the axles just stopped, and one stopped and reverse spun, as if there was a VERY strong counter force on that particular axle.

    If I drop sand, will it actually lift the wheel and allow rotation, and dynamically change the contact at the wheel/rail interface when the wheel lands back on the rail....?

    I understand you can't give out trade secrets - but anything you can say would be great. I really do appreciate the simulation aspects of TSW - for me, this is the main thing. (It's why I also like Assetto Corsa, where the simulation is awesome.....).
     
  26. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    Really interesting question!

    Had a chat with our lead engineer and he gave me some answers for you :)

    Air Resistance - yes
    Rolling Resistance - Yes
    Longitudinal Friction - Yes
    Lateral Friction - No
    Drawbar Forces / Energy through buffers - Yes
    Gravity - Yes
    Suspension - Limited, but yes - there is suspension from the bogie to the body of the train essentially which you can see by watching the exterior as the body rocks around on the bogies.
    Resonance - No

    Regarding forces from axles, yes, ish. At the simugraph level the force on each axle is calculated independently and then combined together per-bogie. The per-bogie force is then what is applied to the rail.

    Wheel slip isn't working properly at the moment, and is not hooked up to the weather systems - we have an adhesion system in place but it needs more work to resolve the issues before it's enabled properly. It is possible to cause slip at the moment but it doesn't really work the way its supposed to yet.

    Sand will increase adhesion, yes - though given the above note, that's of limited use at the moment.

    Hope that answers your questions
    Matt.
     
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  27. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I would happily watch this as a devstream... just saying :D
     
  28. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! Yes - this is quite useful - and it lines up with my increasing suspicion that the simulation at the core of TSW is pretty darn good already, and likely to get even better. Someone owes me a beer - you know who you are....! Please pass on my thanks to your Mech, for the feedback on the world interface. This stuff isn't entirely straightforward to do in UE (to say the least...).

    One of the great things about TSW is the variety of traction, and rolling stock. It's very well curated from the start. It would be really good to get the variation in adhesion/slip tied to weather, across the services - that would (for me) effectively double or treble the content/playability/value of the game/software. I appreciate it's tough to do, and I'd rather see it come in when everyone on your engineering side is very happy with it. Best things come to those that wait.

    NB: Thanks again for your reply, it's one of the best that I have seen since looking at the "How Do You Make A Route?" thread:

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/how-do-you-make-a-route.16286/

    NB2: I have taught quite a few people (mainly bored single mums) to get into Blender and 3DS Max, and your first attempt at a signal box was fine, trust me. (They all mostly went on to run very profitable 3D modelling micro-businesses - nothing to do with trains though...).
     
  29. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Hi Matt

    Thanks again for your reply. I have been tinkering with the Class 47 and Class 45 on NTP. The consensus from this thread appears to be that the Class 47 is under-powered - but.... I personally still find the Class 47 to be okay. (Although I don't have the freight pack).

    Maybe it is under-powered, and acting like a Class 31..., but I don't experience this on PS4. NTP is a challenge with the Class 47, and one that I quite like. And to ace the route, with this loco, I think you really need to learn the route intimately, to retain momentum etc... But... the Class 45, which should (in my opinion) perform similarly to the 47, seems to me to be a little bit too perky... The 45 appears in TSW to be much more responsive, and appears to have a lot more power, like 30% more power. It should (rough calculation...) merely have.... (when combined with eight coaches).... about a 10% higher mass/inertia (and momentum when underway) - that should be the key operational difference, roughly speaking... I think. (I am quite happy to be told I am completely wrong...).

    So I have the same problem as everyone else, but with a different perspective... ;-)

    Anyway - I was thinking about your feedback on the bogies (as selectively quoted above). And I wondered if this might be the source of the problem with the 45/47 comparison. So, I have another couple of questions:

    Q1 - When the "per-bogie" force is delivered to the rail - is it done as a single point, as if the bogie was made from one axle?
    Q2 - Has the weight of the loco been averaged out across all of the axles, or has all of it been applied to the bogies as if they had one axle?

    I ask this because it occurred to me that maybe the Class 45 has been gifted 30% more adhesion, by virtue of its weight, but not cancelled out, by virtue of the number of axles. If the wheel arrangement of the 45 (1Co-Co1) and 47 (Co-Co) have both been counted as if they are "Ao-Ao", and their respective weights applied (without modification), then the 45 would have a massive advantage over the 47, in terms of traction and brake force (a 30% higher axle-weight....). In fact, pretty much as experienced by me (on PS4, with coaching stock). And maybe everyone else...?

    Can you please ask your engineer.....? ;-)

    (Apologies in advance if this is all totally obvious, and of course the 45 pony axle has been taken into account... etc...).
     
  30. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Active Member

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    The point is the 47 does perform basically identical to the 45 on PC, e.g taken from the other thread a comparison run between the Classes 47/45/40 on full power accelerating away from Stalybridge on an Oil Train.

    (Class 47, Class 45 and Class 40)

    Scout Tunnel (26/26/22)
    Mossley Station (27/27/22)
    Highest Speed between Mossley and Greenfield (33/34/26)
    Greenfield Station (29/29/24)
    High Speed between Greenfield and Diggle (33/34/28)
    Diggle Junction Box (31/32/26)
    Standedge Tunnel entrance (30/31/25)
    Standedge Tunnel exit (55/55/50)

    The performance of the two is near identical on PC, however console the 47 is barely able to get maintain any speed due to the sheer weight of the oil train. On the significantly lighter passenger trains you don't need to use anywhere near full power (something like 1100HP to maintain against gravity) to hold 60mph on the same climb, and so the difference in performance is barely noticeable although its a bit slower to reach 60mph.

    The adhesion is of no relevance here at speed as the adhesion limit is nowhere near to being reached (as shown by the locomotives not slipping) on either locomotives.
     
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  31. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Ah, okay. Thanks. I think I have found my own salvation, by not having the freight pack for NTP.... I will keep an eye out for when it all gets fixed.

    EDITED TO ADD:
    I was talking about the impact of loco weight (+30% for the 45) on potentially "merged" driven axles on tractive effort, but I said "adhesion" - sorry, my point wasn't really about limit of slip.... Anyway - as you say, you have benchmark data across PC/console platforms that renders my question about the bogies a bit pointless.... ;-) It's a shame there isn't a test track available, or a dynamometer car.....

    I do hope that it all eventually gets fixed for console. In the meantime, a simple fix to the HUD's green zone on the ammeter would be a start, which might also help people that do not have the freight pack get moving more effectively, from standstill.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  32. Doyden

    Doyden New Member

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    I've been working my way through the journeys on NTP gaining gold for each until I reached the Travelling Post Office.

    You are placed in a class 47 and even though I set off immediately and adhered to speed limits, I still arrived at the first stop in Huddersfield some five minutes late. I just couldn't gain speed anything like I would be able to in the 40 or 45. The 47 could barely pull the skin off a rice pudding let alone a full rake of carriages out of Manchester.

    I did arrive in Leeds only a minute or so late but even so I only scored a silver for this. Even acceleration downhill seems inexplicably slow. I'm reluctant to try it again until some attention is given to the 47 on consoles or perhaps one of the devs could confirm they are performing as expected and I just failed for some other reason.

    Has anyone else managed to complete this journey with gold on console?
     
  33. InspectorTiger

    InspectorTiger Active Member

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    Are you able to see debug output of the Simugraph numbers on console? I mean, one or more of those numbers must be different, mustn't it? That would at least give us a clue as to where the anomaly comes from.
     
  34. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Well, I quite fancied this challenge.. ;-)

    Like you, adhering to speed limits (including the 1000yd long 15mph one), I arrived in Huddersfield five minutes late (5:39), but got no obvious penalty - I was awarded 500 AP for the stop. Out of Huddersfield, I noticed some interesting feedback from the loco, which really should not happen, and fooled around for a bit, which cost some time. Got distracted just outside Leeds and took a -30 and -15 penalty, and lost about three minutes, arriving in Leeds about five minutes late (and got 500 AP for the stop).

    So, I think I lost 45 points in total, giving me 6055 AP, and a silver..... I thought maybe the total available was 6100 AP, but maybe there's a couple of 500s missing (for being late at the stops?).

    Anyway - AP scoring aside - I think I might have found a workaround for the Class 47. If I did the run again, with the same conditions, but with more skill, then I think I can shave a minute off my arrival in Huddersfield, making me around four to five minutes late. But if my workaround works, then I think I can shave off the full five minutes... But don't hold your breath, it's just a "hunch" at this point. If I am right, then it might help the Loco/Route dev to hunt down the fix. I am not expecting to be right though.... *crosses fingers*
     
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  35. Doyden

    Doyden New Member

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    Thanks for trying this!

    Like you although very late into Huddersfield I think I too received the full 500. I was however a little late on the brakes coming out of the tunnel towards the end and would have lost a few points for a minor speed limit infraction.

    The problem is that I've had broken the speed limit slightly on other journeys and still been awarded gold so this particular scenario is either very harsh or it is just down to being so late due to the power problems with the 47.

    I'll be interested to hear if you do manage it. I was going to do the same route but using a 40 or 45 in timetable mode to see if that still counts and completes the journey. I doubt it will though.

    I've noticed the power issue with the 47 ever since I bought NTP in March. I hope we get a fix soon.
     
  36. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I think I may try driving the 47 again after reading the replies here, just to see what I can tease out of it. Glad it's getting looked at by DTG though.
     
  37. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Just to confirm, we are talking about the ninth service under the first "Journey" in NTP - "Travelling Post Office" terminating Leeds at 5.35am.

    Run No. 2
    So... I gave it another run, using a slightly daft workaround (see below), and got significant improvement. I was only three minutes late into Huddersfield, and one minute late into Leeds. I think I can do better - like two minutes late into Huddersfield, and Leeds on time (within the timetabled minute...just). I scored 6160 AP, and got a silver. There is 2x500 AP available for the two stop actions, and 5160 AP for fully driving under the speed limit. The 500s are awarded for the stop Action - not for accuracy or timeliness (and I checked this). So there is a bug, as you cannot get gold. Personally, I think that it should not have a medal associated with it, as there doesn't appear to be a challenge - if you do the whole thing at 5mph, then you will get a full score and a silver medal. But then again, why would you do that...? I don't think that you can beat this score with the 40 or 45, but if you do... let me know...! You might make it on time to both stations, much more easily though.

    If DTG know different, can they please let us know? Or if anyone else gets a gold (or more AP), can you please let us know? Maybe I missed something...

    Slightly Daft Workaround for Class 47
    Anyway, also of interest - it turns out that you can give the Class 47 a bit more zip... especially from 0-15 mph. Because there is a weird drag randomly acting on the Class 47. When you leave Manchester, after you have released all of the brakes, a few seconds later there is a hiss - and this is the brakes coming back on...very slightly. The change on the train brake dial (on the HUD) is almost impossible to see, but it is there. You can see the needle bounce back from slightly in the white, back to the green/white boundary, if you then release the brakes again (i.e. put the handle into the overcharge position by pressing L1), and then the resistance to acceleration eases off significantly. And you gain three minutes on each leg of this service, but only if you keep on pressing L1, every few seconds.... (as it is not obvious when the ghost brakeman does his work, when the train gets louder...).

    This random braking is very easy to notice when pulling out of Huddersfield, because with all of the brakes off (and fully wound off), and throttle in, say, position 5, on a downhill run... you would expect the train to not slow down, but it does, and if you overcharge the brakes again, you can accelarate again. This is possibly of interest to DominusEdwardiusdrag . If this sounds like something else, which is completely normal and expected, can someone let me know.....?

    NB: I also checked and tested various combinations of brake settings (air/vacuum/passenger/freight) for the 47, and the hand brake - and all of this functionality (and labelling...) seemed fine. I also checked every handbrake wheel in all of the MkI vans... I also tried the DSD and AWS (with cab changeover). I half managed to make myself believe that having the AWS on gave you more power, but I think I was imagining this, at this point... ;-)
     
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  38. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Run No.3
    Two minutes late into Huddersfield. Made it to Leeds on time - well, four seconds late to standstill, with a very comfortable approach.. No extra AP points (max is still 6160). The weird thing with the brakes has a huge effect on the second leg... you are able to build up so much more speed, and so much more quickly - but you have to keep stabbing that release, or it will steal your momentum in a flash....

    This run with the 47 has a very long rake of mail vans - and it is a challenge, but it can be done....! I quite like it that way, but I am still going to hold off getting the Freight Pack until that is all fixed. The lack of gold medal will perplex most people thouigh - it's a bit like the Introductions that don't get medalled at all, or get bronze for max - it's really very odd.
     
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  39. Doyden

    Doyden New Member

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    Great work!

    I'm pleased you mentioned the bronze for the training missions as I couldn't understand why I wasn't achieving gold when following every instruction to the letter.

    I feel as though there is some bug where any scenario or timetable run which has fewer activities just doesn't have enough points available to achieve gold no matter how you perform. One of the short runs on the 166 on GWE only gave me silver whereas I can gain a gold every time for the full route runs.

    To emphasise that point, I tried this same travelling post office route in timetable mode using a class 40. It was a breath of fresh air compared to trying it with the 47. I easily reached Huddersfield on time and with only three miles to go into Leeds, I still had ten minutes left. I backed off so as not to arrive too early but even completing this on-time, I still only scored a silver. As above, I put this down to the limited activities (stops) on this journey.

    The OCD in me isn't going to be happy to see that silver in the list (or the bronze for the training) so I hope this, and the 47 power issue is resolved soon.
     
  40. InspectorTiger

    InspectorTiger Active Member

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    Hello... I think you might be on to something here!
     
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  41. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Active Member

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    Tried this service (on PC) and yep I got a Silver too (with 5980 points, lost a bit of point game due to a touch of forgetfulness leading to speeding), arrived 1 minute and 7 seconds early at Huddersfield and 1 minute and 11 seconds at Leeds (due to getting held for 5 minutes outside the station). I would suspect the threshold for this services gold has been set too high.

    As for the brakes couldn't see any issues what so ever, nothing is dragging at all. I suspect it may have been possible you've accidentally used the release position (which you should never really do) and then applied it still with overcharge which will lead to dragging brakes. If you ever use the release position make sure to hold it in release for about 30 seconds then let the handle drop back to running, then do not under any circumstances apply the brake for a further 2-3 minutes (otherwise you have to do it all over again).
     
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  42. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Run No. 3.5
    Thanks for your kindness - you are absolutely right, this is exactly what I was doing with the DualShock, but it wasn't accidental, it was habitual... ;-D So I have now had to "unthink" that the L1, when pressed, drops you into "zero" (running) brake on the train pipe, but actually drops you somewhere you don't want to be, and you need to be very careful with that button. So I tried again (a partial Run No.4), and the performance was equivalent to my daft drag compensating jabbing technique (so - two minutes late into Huddersfield, on a very clean run, hitting the "apex" where I wanted to) - the only difference being no dragging brakes at all.. Thank you for this..! (I would rather do it properly...).

    I am tempted to think that you gained some time on the first leg by skipping through that 15mph zone at about 50mph (which would cost you 90 points).... ;-)

    So, I think that we have come full circle, maybe*. I am still very pleased with the Class 47... (noting that I haven't done freight). I especially love the sounds - one of the best things in TSW, in my opinion.

    *But I wonder if other XBox and PS4 players are falling into the same trap as me, with the 47, and hugging the L1 button (or equivalent), to "release" the main brake line, instead of putting it into running? And maybe PC users don't make the same mistake if they are on a keyboard? This is just pure speculation. It makes me wonder if the NTP freight services would suddenly be fine... (although, you have indicated there is also a problem with power, so maybe I am just hoping a little too much, for now....?).
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  43. Bkulesza

    Bkulesza Member

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    The 47 does the same kind of ghost braking on WSR also. I've been hugging L1 ever since.. (PS4)
     
  44. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I don't think driving style has anything to do with the lack of power, it's just broken.

    I've had a go driving it again and noticed this...If you look at the number in the HUD Amps field, it is flickering all the time, never showing a steadily rising or falling number as all other trains do, suggesting two or more variables are constantly fighting against each other in the simulation engine, leading to a correct number (and therefore the train's tractive power) never being achieved.

    It's been interesting reading about your attempts to get good scores with it, and lots of good info on this thread.
     
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  45. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Could it have anything to do with measuring its power up against 5 coaches in WSR (originally) as opposed to the now 7 on WSR and 8 that it has on NTP. There was a significant time difference between the creation of WSR on PC and the console version wasn't there?
     
  46. Sheldon1000

    Sheldon1000 New Member

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    As of February 2020, still not fixed.
     
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  47. Crimsonhobbit

    Crimsonhobbit New Member

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    As of April still not fixed. I'm a newbie and the 47 is definitely a slug on NTP. A lot of the technical stuff in all the posts above is over my head but I can't believe this loco is not capable of going over 50 on the flat towards Huddersfield! It's impossible to keep to the timetable.
     
  48. septafan

    septafan Member

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    In a recent live stream mattc mentioned that they know of the issue and are working on a solution for that class 47
     
  49. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    That's what Dmitri said in this very thread back in September and apparently it was even mentioned on a stream a few months before that...
     
  50. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    The class 47 fix is in testing phase- Matt P this week.
     
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