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Class 47 Ntp Route - Slow?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by jamiebrannan13, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. jamiebrannan13

    jamiebrannan13 New Member

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    just wondering if I’m doing something wrong but anytime to drive the class 47 on NTP it seems to accelerate really slow and top speed of around 45-50 (when it eventually gets there) but the class 45 seems to reach 60+ easy.

    Was that just normal or am I making a silly mistake somewhere?

    Thanks in advance
     
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  2. FallenAngel00me

    FallenAngel00me Active Member

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    The class 47 is weak imo. If you have a 1% uphill gradient, you'll struggle to get past 45mph
     
  3. Scotrail156467

    Scotrail156467 Member

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    I use the 47 a lot on NTP and I have no problems on getting up to 60mph even with the fright services not just passenger
     
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  4. InspectorTiger

    InspectorTiger Active Member

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    The 47 doesn't have a lot of grunt, and this is a very steep line. On a grade of 1% or more, as mentioned, it's all a loaded 47 can do just to maintain speed with the throttle wide open, never mind accelerate. You have to take every opportunity to pick up speed on the flat, or when you get to the hill, it'll be a long, slow climb!

    By comparison, the 45 has power to spare. In fact, if you ever make the mistake of coming to a stand on one of these hills, it's more or less impossible to get going again, because putting down enough power to move the train will cause wheelslip.
     
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  5. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    However in real life the 47 is the newer*, most powerful and had the greatest tractive effort of the three diesel locomotives in NTP and yet when hauling the same consist it seems to struggle the most.

    On the early morning newspaper run it doesn't get much above 15mph up the hill out of Manchester and barely gets above 35 to Stalybridge. The 45 is much quicker and the less powerful 40 also faster. So... I don't know, maybe it's the gearing but it doesn't seem quite right to me. I still enjoy it but it's at 100% throttle most of the time.

    * They were only about 20 years old at the period represented.
     
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  6. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I've started a speed comparison test between the 47/45/40 on passenger runs. From the 15 mph limit at Stalybridge up to Standedge and from the 15 mph limit at Huddersfield up to Standedge. Full throttle all the way up and seeing what passing speeds are at Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden and Slaithwaite and speed at the tunnel mouth. Will let you know how I get on.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
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  7. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    The results are in. All runs done in either Autumn or Summer. Dry and during the day. On an Xbox One X. In acending order of class (40/45/47) speeds from rolling at 13 mph from Huddersfield tunnel and applying full power as soon as the 15 mph speed restriction increased:

    Slaithwaite: 58/67/42 mph
    Marsden:. 61/71/42 mph
    Standedge: 65/75/48 mph

    From the other way. Rolling at 15 mph from Stalybridge and full power as soon as the speed restriction increased :

    Mossley: 55/62/43 mph
    Greenfield: 64/72/50 mph
    Standedge: 69/78/53 mph

    For info I was tripped by a red at the entrance to Standedge on these runs in the 40 and 45. No warning. All clear until red at Standedge tunnel mouth. Maybe excessive speeding causes this signal to go to danger?

    Conclusion: It's clear there's something very wrong with the 47 or the 40 and 45 are unrealistically quick. A reminder of the specifications:

    Class 40: 2,000 hp, 133 tonnes, Max speed 90 mph.
    Class 45: 2,500 hp, 136 tonnes, Max speed 90 mph.
    Class 47: 2,580 hp, 117 tonnes, Max speed 95 mph.

    It doesn't stack up. Another glitch for DTG to look into.
     
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  8. jamiebrannan13

    jamiebrannan13 New Member

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    Thanks for the update, judging by the specifications and the results there is definitely something amiss, it’s a shame because I love driving the class 47, it’s just frustratingly slow.






     
  9. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I think the 101 is faster.
     
  10. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    :D
    Yes quite possibly. Although attaching a few of those oil tankers would hamper it somewhat.

    I wonder what the 47 is like on WSR compared to the 33 - with 1000hp less? I haven't got the 33 to test. It always felt quite quick but I suppose that's compared to a 09 shunter!
     
  11. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I've not dared try the 47 on tanks yet.

    It seems the 47 is more like a 31.
     
  12. Vinnie

    Vinnie Active Member

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    The class 47 is quite challenge to drive, among drivers some say the 45 could outperform the 47.
    Still, true that the difference between then it's not that big IRL. In game notice when driving the 47 the "field divert" kicks in, the amps go higher while doing 31mph and 45 mph respectively. (If I recall correctly) Even after that is pretty difficult to achieve higher speeds in some sections.
    60mph or more, at downhills of course. Notice as well, usually when you try coast the train loses quite a lot of speed, as if they had brakes holding the train in the rear cab. I always had that impression. (on NTP at least)
    I'm convinced there's a issue and it's worthwhile taking a second look in the loco.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  13. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    It would be good if there were some historical records of 47/45/40 speeds across this route. Had a search but couldn't find any.
     
  14. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Member

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    On your runs with the Class 40/45/47 from Stalybridge to Standedge, what Train were you using (freight loaded/empty or passenger set)?
     
  15. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    They were all the same. 8 coach passenger runs.
     
  16. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Member

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    In that case I just tried replicating your run with the 47 and my speeds were doing exactly the same thing, holding around 15mph (13mph in my case) until the speed limit lifts (slightly later as I failed to notice it change oops) and my speeds were:
    Mossley 60mph
    Greenfield 68mph
    Diggle Junction 73mph
    Standedge Tunnel entrance 73mph

    which are just shy of the 45 speeds and above the 40 speeds.
     
  17. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Your speeds don't look too bad. I got 43, 50, 53 respectively. Are you on an Xbox?
     
  18. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Member

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    PC sorry, shouldn't make a blind bit of difference though
     
  19. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    It shouldn't, but maybe it's platform related. I don't get the performance you get. Nowhere near.
     
  20. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Member

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    Repeating the Test but this time with an oil train (6E36) I got the following results (Class 47, Class 45 and Class 40)

    Scout Tunnel (26/26/22)
    Mossley Station (27/27/22)
    Highest Speed between Mossley and Greenfield (33/34/26)
    Greenfield Station (29/29/24)
    High Speed between Greenfield and Diggle (33/34/28)
    Diggle Junction Box (31/32/26)
    Standedge Tunnel entrance (30/31/25)
    Standedge Tunnel exit (55/55/50)

    Overall much the same results as before but the 45 and 47 were much closer together being basically indistinguishable, the 40 interestingly put up a very impressive performance inside Standedge tunnel.

    I'd say your results had a rogue brake dragging probably, may have accidentally used the release position without realising and then applied the brake too soon causing the brakes to stick on.
     
  21. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I thought it might be brakes but kept checking the pressures and all looked good. And it was picking up speed quite easily on the downhill sections. No dragging at all. Plenty of others have the same problem it seems.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  22. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Member

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    Perhaps trying 6E36 and recording it to see if I can spot anything different from my own run?
     
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  23. Vinnie

    Vinnie Active Member

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    I think I have found the Issue,
    Maybe it's platform related...
    The Amps on the class 47 are messed up, going down to quickly, you can't keep a high steady AMP because they drop too quickly affecting drastically your speed since the engines produces less current.
    I will try to call Matt's attention to this issue, and hopefully someone will take a look.
     
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  24. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Running the 6E36 now. Double checked all brakes are off including handbrake. Brake cylinder gauge is at zero pressure. Brake pipe pressure is 5 bar. Full power out of Stalybridge. Crawling at a continuous 13 mph. Pulling about 4,300 amps. Approaching Mossley at 13 mph steady.
     
  25. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    It dropped to 11 mph at one point after Mossley and pulling 4,800 Amps. Double checked brakes are off.
     
  26. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Approaching Greenfield at 14 mph 4,150 Amps. All brakes off.
     
  27. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Approaching Standedge at 9.6 mph, 6,000 Amps. All brakes off.
     
  28. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I terminated the service. The 47 is unusable on heavy freight on the Xbox at least.
     
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  29. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    This is interesting. I'll try the 6E36 on my PS4 later as a comparison, although I'm not expecting a high speed run!


    Edit: Much the same results and same conclusion. The 47 is very sluggish. Certainly it doesn't feel like a type 4 loco. (Not so bad on the lighter van run)
    I also revisited the WSR version and that also struggles to get up to speed. It's not so apparent with the lines 25 mph limit.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
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  30. jamiebrannan13

    jamiebrannan13 New Member

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    You’ve just answered my question about if it was the same on WSR, such a shame because it was always one of my favourites to see when I was a kid
     
  31. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    When I was a lad they were so common that you'd almost disregard them. Now when I see one it's "oh great a 47". :)
    (And they always have seemed to be quite nimble)
     
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  32. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I don't have WSR but the performance there is not so important obviously.

    It seems that things are better on the PC version, so I'm confused why that hasn't carried through to the consoles.

    Had good runs behind 47s and 45s IRL. Negligible difference from a passenger perspective and both capable of 100mph.
     
  33. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    It's quite hilly as you head inland and the 47 makes a meal out of it. However there's a relatively flat 3 mile section along the coast. From a standing start and flat out the 47 pulling 7 coaches only gets up to around 60mph along it. Just over 80 without any coaches.

    And the strange thing is I got the "Maxed Out" trophy for reaching 75mph in a 47. Maxed out? Hmm.
     
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  34. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    Since I wrote this I've bought the class 33 and have now compared it to the WSR 47. Up to about 50mph the 33 edges it slightly but beyond that the 33 pulls away. At the the end of the same section the 33 was 13mph faster.

    This sums it up.
     
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  35. simongilford

    simongilford Member

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    I've only just started using the 47 and noticed that it seemed underpowered straight away, I put it down to either -

    1. It just not being as torquey uphill as the 45's - which were called Peaks for a reason I assume (being designed to climb hills)
    or
    2. Me not priming/pressurising the Drivers brakes properly at the start like the 47 tutorial suggests (put Straight Brake to 100% and then drivers brake to another setting, i forget which), and this somehow causing a brake somewhere to 'stick on.'

    I'm on PS4 Pro, not the xbox, so apologies for posting in the xbox forum, but the issue does seem to affect both.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  36. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Errrm. They are called peaks as they derived from the Class 44 which were all named after "Peaks" i.e. mountains.

    Brakes are definitely off as they have no problem gathering speed downhill without power.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  37. simongilford

    simongilford Member

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    I stand corrected Jez, just always assumed that's where the peak name came from. :)
     
  38. Vinnie

    Vinnie Active Member

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    No, actually the locomotive is producing less than a half of the correct voltage (465v). It's something related with the load regulator.
    It's a console only issue, on PC the 47's are perfectly fine
     
  39. Fitz

    Fitz New Member

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    Would love DTG to fix the 47, I love to drive it but it's so slugish, It feels more like a 37 hauling steel train out of Tees Yard than anything.
     
  40. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. It looks and sounds like a duff but it doesn't go like a duff.
     
  41. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    True. I've been overtaken by the 08 on a couple of occasions. :love:
     
  42. simongilford

    simongilford Member

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    Was driving the 47 again today, overbraked on purpose and came down to 7mph, all brakes off on an even gradient.

    No matter how much I gave the throttle it would not speed up, just coasted.

    Is it a bug or should I have stopped and gone through the startup routine again?

    I assume DTG are aware of this issue?
     
  43. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Member

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    If you ever get that again, you can try moving the throttle to off, wait 15 seconds then try again, just to ensure the load regulator has fully run back so the generator field windings can reconnect.
     
  44. simongilford

    simongilford Member

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    Thanks, I will try that.
     

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