Feedback On Db Br 406 Ice 3m Driver's Guide

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Rudolf, Dec 24, 2020.

  1. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    During the roadmap stream the first professionally created tutorial video was announced. You can watch it here if you have not done so:


    I would like to give some feedback.
    In general, I liked it and it may be helpful.

    With respect of the contents: to access the cabinet for train setup, you can use the left or right arrow key to pass along the controls. This works in most engines. So no need to crouch, leave the driver seat (sometimes a simulator has advantages above the real world).

    It is OK to leave SIFA, PZB and LZB out for a starters tutorial, but it would be awesome to explain AFB.

    My more fundamental criticism is on the choice of medium. Video is nice, but it is not very suitable to look up information. How much work would it be to create a booklet as well, with the instructions written stepwise? Something you can view on a tablet, or print out out.

    This also would allow to address trouble shooting. What tricks can you use if your engine just refuses to drive? How do you recover from an emergency stop?

    This also would allow to explain a bit more background.
    There also would be a lot gained if the in game tutorial covers the same step as the video tutorial. So you can use this sequence:

    1. Watch the video
    2. Try it yourself using the tutorial
    3. Repeat the tutorial, but without instructions and use the written instructions to make sure you follow all steps.

    I missed the tutorials added to a separate playlist. It may be hard to find them back later at YouTube.

    Finally, Sam stop telling us the DTG website cannot handle this. That is not an excuse. Eventually build a separate website or use a flat HTML page to cover this.
     
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  2. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Interesting feedback, Rudolph. I would like to respond to a few of your points.

    I believe it was on the latest roadmap stream where Sam mentioned that this video is intended to supplement a written manual that is currently in-progress. A visual guide for the written one, if you will.

    I am a bit confused as to why they feel that it is necessary to create a video in the first place when this could very well be done in an in-game tutorial. In fact, is this video not mostly redundant given that an in-game tutorial already exists for the ICE 3?

    I believe I know what quote you are referring to and you are confusing two separate thoughts. Adding a video tutorial is less a question about Dovetail Live support and more about creating a video-playing layer to Unreal Engine. Now, this isn't impossible to overcome but it's not a question of Dovetail Live. Perhaps you are confusing that statement with when Sam said the current DTL does not support details/disclosure/summary boxes (in response to someone's suggestion for de-cluttering the Roadmap), which is a bit silly.

    Cheers
     
  3. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

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    That can not be called a guide, it is a showing up video, a guide is a writen document that you can read and explain what and how to do the different function, a video can only breifly show the function
     
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  4. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for letting me know a video isn’t a guide, I have been utilizing videos as guides for the past 15 years or so in my consulting practice, who knew I was doing it wrong. Better let all that use YouTube to learn how things work and Udemy to learn hundreds of subjects that the videos aren’t really guides and they should look elsewhere.

    Sorry for sounding a bit snippy, but that was one of the more egregious statements I have read in a while in the forums. Some people prefer written documentation, others prefer video instruction... both can be viewed as “guides”
     
  5. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

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    With video you canot go back and forth as you wish, and that is for those that can access them
    with a video all you can do is play it and try to catch what you want to know, and hope you can view and ear what it is explained, real documentation now a days, are in PDF form, you can easyly search, and also go back and forth, just a few pages, or whole chaptiers if need be, but with video, it is either you get to see, and hopefully catch what you want, and even that hopefully be able get the explanation, or you just miss it and be flat on your backend, and wasted time and still not anywhere near understanding what you are looking for
     
  6. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    We will have to agree to disagree - I make my living for the past 30 years as a professional trainer and as I have said - make extensive use of videos in my training. In fact many of my live sessions are recorded so that the students can go back and review the course in its entirety. Since in a video you can stop - rewind, play again and again - until you grasp the concept or technique being discussed it is a very useful training technique. Even on Youtube you have the rewind capability

    Also as a trainer I know each individual has different preferences and capabilities for learning - some can read a PDF all day and never be able to grasp the material - others can have it explained while others must go through the motions to learn. You sound like one that can read and comprehend - fantastic -- for others the video format where a topic is demonstrated is more beneficial.

    But we are far afield from the original topic of this thread - but if you would like to further discuss the four basic learning theories - visual, auditory, reading/writing and kinesthetic, lets do so via direct messaging
     
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  7. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

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    I have no idea how to do the direct messaging

    But one very important point, video online cost a lot of money to access, over $5/min, not counting that you have to pay to access the service which provide the video(s)
     
  8. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    I think you both have a point. Few things I learned of over 60 years of learning new stuff:

    - You will not learn by watching videos or reading a manual alone
    - You learn by practice what you have seen, make mistakes and get feedback in any form
    - You can learn a lot by trial and error.
    - You can learn even more by teaching, because it forces you to rethink what you learnt and explain it to someone else very clearly. One way to do this is reply to questions in the forums.

    Having said this, I just refer to my original post:

    - I liked the video
    - This should be accompanied by a written text, fro looking up stuff and give some more background
    - There should be guided and unguided in game tutorials for practising what you have seen.
     
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  9. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I agree whole-heartedly, I always run my training sessions as Explain, Demonstrate and then Do. Using both video and documentation is always an improvement over using either one separately. I just could not go with a video is not a guide. Call it a 64 year old’s stubbornness ... as an aside, just before I started perusing the forums that day, was asking a friend on how to configure a cell booster that we both have installed on our different properties and his response was “Have you ‘Youtubed’ it yet?”
    Best and Merry Christmas
     
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  10. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

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    I think that Leadcatcher, Rudolf, and I can agree that it may take may ways to learn thing and trial and error is probably the oldest and trueest way to learn

    PS. Leadcatcher, I was not trying to single you out, or anybody else for that matter
     
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  11. paweuek

    paweuek Active Member

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    I was once an Academic Teacher. We had one saying those days. It was something like this: I explained it to them for the third time, even I finally understood it and they still not ;-p
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
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  12. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    I like the video and the idea behind this tutorial approach. I didn't know how to change destination boards in that train :)

    I think this format would be perfect to explain also the signals/boards and the signalling systems. And yes AFB could be included as in this train activation and configuration is different to the german locomotives for instance, as it's done via the display.

    Another important topic to cover is the coupling procedures in multiple units like this one as it involves the couplers coverings. In some commuter trains it's also requiring the usage of a special key.

    Cheers
     
  13. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Well-Known Member

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    Here is what I pass on to those I am fortunate enough to teach:

    Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.
     
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  14. GrayDawg

    GrayDawg Well-Known Member

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    I think video guides are an excellent idea, if executed well. This first guide was not bad at all, for being the first one. They should however be accompanied with a nice PDF file where things are explained in more depth, and nice pictures showing things too. Not just how to do something, but why, and when etc. Give some deeper information about things. This goes for routes as well as rolling stock.
     
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  15. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I think a video is not the best medium to convey those kinds of informations. I agree with LeadCatcher, video can be a great way to learn new stuff, animations can help a lot as well, but, if I want a checklist of things I need to do to get a train moving, or a description of the buttons in the cab, like this guide, a simple image where everything is labelled and a description below would be better in my opinion, critical informations would be easier to find and would be neater.

    Example, I am driving the ICE3M and I want to press PZB Acknowledge after I pass a sign, if I don't pause, would it be better to have the video opened on my phone or a document with an arrow that points to the hotkey/cab switch?

    I am 100% for more video guides from DTG, but they can't be simply checklists or "X is the Y lever and does Z" for this sort of things I believe a written document would have been superior.
    Screenshot_20201227-104828_Drive.jpg
    The ICE3M guide was just a video which didn't have much more information than this page.
    For the screens and the cabinet only two or three additional images would have been needed.

    For the procedures a checklist would have been better in my opinion, example:

    Changing Destination Display:

    -Press UD Button twice [To get to the Main Menu]
    -Press E [To start changing destinations]
    -Navigate with L/R [To select your destination]
    -Press E [To confirm]
    -Press UD [To go back to the original display]
    Checklist complete.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
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  16. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    I liked the video, and learned a good deal too. Thanks, Matt and DTG!

    I thought it was just the right amount of detail to get started.

    It would be great to also have a checklist, but it doesn't need to be in-game. Something I could pull up on a phone or tablet would be fine, thanks!
     
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  17. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Actually, you can access the cabinet from the chair, even though you cannot fully see it. :P

    I agree AFB needs more explanation. I also think LZB should get more attention as it's pretty much crucial for high speed operation. Personally I think the start-up procedure isn't as important, as in service mode all trains are already ready to go, and in scenarios the start-up steps are usually explained as part of the objectives.
    I also think destination boards are less important than AFB/LZB.

    Agreed, I'd prefer a booklet. A video can be nice, but it's hard to browse to specific content you're looking for. In my case, I had hoped the video would explain AFB/LZB a tad more, but I really learned barely anything new. (Ok, I gotta admit, I now know how to set up destination boards, something I'll probably not use as they're already set up correct in timetable mode). Upside of a booklet is that it has a table of contents, and you can easily skip the parts you don't need to get to the parts you need.

    I really didn't need anyone explaining throttle/brake levers. I guess this video is aimed for those who really have no experience driving any train at all, because throttle/brake levers in the ICE use the default keybinds and really need no special explanation. Keybinds are another thing not explained in the video. They are my prefered method of operating the train, as they're the fastest way to give input without the need to adjust your view.

    Agreed. This is so much needed. I once had LZB get my train to an emergency brake, and I still wouldn't know how to get out of that situation. This kind of information would be much appreciated in manuals. A written booklet please, so I don't have to watch minutes of video footage explaining me things I don't need explained. I just need to scroll directly to the part where it gives me step-by-step instructions how to get out of the situation I got myself in to.

    Agreed, they need to be easy to find. I guess this particular video is just an experiment to collect feedback though.

    As a PC user, I'd just like my PDF manuals to be accessible from Steam, as they did with Train Simulator.
     
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  18. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    This.

    Some of us might struggle with understanding written instructions, but follow along better when shown. Others may be more familiar with procedures and can rely on written documentation.
     
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  19. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Also: it's difficult to refer to a video mid-game! If I'm fumbling around trying to find a particular switch, or remember which PZB speed limit is going to apply in 500 meters, or get the destination board set before the passengers finish boarding, I want something at my elbow, not something I can only access by kicking out of TSW into YouTube, then laboriously fast-fording until it gets to the very specific thing I need. A paper manual (or e-manual on a tablet) - provided it has a decent index - is much more usable.
     
  20. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I did ask on stream about embedding these videos into the game for precisely that reason, if you have to log out and load up youtube then go back into the game afterwards you have forgotten either what you were going to watch or what you just watched. Apparently UE isn't as simple as embedding a youtube video into the game though, it has to be coded into the programme so it isn't that simple.

    I guess the best thing is to be able to have the PDF/video on a second screen that you can refer to while in the game and then you can quickly check which button to press or where that control is you can't find.

    In terms of what is the best to learn - I think this year people have found videos useful because they can pause them, rewind and watch again, and this cannot be done with live instruction, so they do have a place. The comments that if you miss it in the video you are lost are not true, videos can be rewound and with good timestamps it is easy to find the part you are looking for.

    It is absolutely correct to say that learning is an active thing, you can't learn by being passive, you have to be doing it yourself to actually take something in and understand it at a fundamental level. Learning isn't just about remembering, it is about understanding, hopefully at an intuitive level. That way if your memory fails you, it is possible to figure out for yourself what the answer is.
     
  21. Thorgred

    Thorgred Member

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    i like both a written guide and a video guide
    some stuff can not be fully explained in a written guide to fully understand it
    sometimes you just have to see it :)
     
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  22. Nuggit82

    Nuggit82 New Member

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    Hi! I have a rather embarrassing problem.. I have followed the in-game tutorial... but as soon as I start moving a voice is saying something in german... "---- bremsen"... Can anybody point me in the right direction? my german is good enough to understand its something to do with the brakes... but thats pretty much it... any advice?
     
  23. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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  24. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

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    It probably could be "Federspeicherbremse", what would mean the parking brake is still applied. When you look to your right side, there are two rows with buttons, in the second row the third button will release the parking brake.
     

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