Glasgow Cathcart Circle - First Impressions

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, May 28, 2021.

  1. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Don't drive at night then
    Seriously though, it was only monday Nat said they were looking into it, they wouldn't have got that upgraded that fast. It will most likely appear on the roadmap.
     
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  2. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    This is an issue with tsw2´s night lighting in general. In alot of routes when you approach major urban areas, Koln HBF, Munchen HBF, London St Pancreas International as a few examples, it´s way too dark compared to what it would be due to the simple fact that buildings produce light pollution so the surrounding area should be brighter but tsw2 doesn´t seem to have very good light pollution and poor lighting in buildings which often results in urban areas being much darker then they would be in reality. The night time lighting in tsw2 is very poor and could use an overhaul. Ironically in train simulator, night time lighting is much better in my opinion compared to tsw2 around urban areas
     
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  3. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    Good joke :D But don't say it too loud, lest DTG change it by their usual "if you don't like it don't buy it" slogan. It would certainly be more lucrative for them :D
    Joking aside, it's possible that you are right and they haven't had time to change it, but it's also possible that they've decided to leave it as it is. Maybe Matt will say something about it in today's tomorrow's stream.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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  4. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Here is what it should look like:
    147D27AD-4F92-4986-A075-234DA2E6599E.png

    And here is what it looks like in game:
    45ABCBF2-BD99-4A7A-9175-F480A80FEACF.png

    There shouldn't be any 'dark spots' on the platforms. DTG can do really good night lighting like on Southeastern where the headlights are subtle but effective and the platforms are properly lit up. If Scotrail actually lit their platforms as dark as that they'd probably get sued for elf & safety.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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  5. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That's not actually true. "Sunlight" can definitely have different casts in different atmospheric conditions. Heck, my living room walls can be grey-green or grey-blue depending on the weather.
     
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  6. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    I really wish they will release for everyone in the same schedule. Its just frustrating that you can't play but the console players can. Whatever happened to DTG treating players across all platforms equally?
     
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  7. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    PS sets their release schedule. MS sets theirs. Historically Steam has always released at 10am pacific time
    In other words, waiting an additional 18 hours isn't going to kill you...
     
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  8. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    PC players get many more benefits such as higher quality textures, framerates, pre-order discounts, more frequent sales and free mods by some very clever users. I think the least we can do is wait a few extra hours for a higher quality experience.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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  9. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    Idk. It feels like an eternity waiting to play while all my youtube videos is from ppl playing it. I always feel like the kid that misses out on fun because he has the flu while the kids around are playing outside.
     
  10. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    PCs have those features, the software isn't enhanced per se to give them that (hence a new xbox or PS5 meets similar standards)
    And the mods aren't always what they're cracked up to be... especially when they break your install or aren't "realistic" when they claim to be
     
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  11. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Not all console players can buy the game now. The DLC becomes available when it is 0:00 of the release date. So, most EU players still need to wait a few more hours, NA players will need to wait even more hours and so on...

    Steam releases are done at 10am PDT because Valve has their offices in the West Coast. If something goes wrong with the release you want the main staff to fix it, not the night shift.
     
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  12. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Hey DTG Natster and TrainSim-Matt, are you aware of the lack of adequate platform lighting, as shown above?

    A more detailed thread can be found here
     
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  13. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    I don't think thats necessarily true. I have seen games go live even before that time in Steam as early as midnight of release date in some instances. I think they align with the classic TS releases and since there is no console versions of it, it was never a problem before.
     
  14. L89

    L89 Well-Known Member

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    They should consider changing to a global release time across all platforms. Australia does seem to get the route 12 hours in advance. I don't think it is the Xbox store because I see content released globally at set times like 10 AM and 4 PM also. Whether that flexibility extends beyond games into DLC I am not sure.
     
  15. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    You can make a release in Steam any time you want, but if you do it out of the office hours the main staff is not going to be there if you have any problem with the release. That is why DTG decided that they prefer to do it at 10am PDT. At least that is what Sam told us in the stream and I do not have any reason not to believe him.
     
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  16. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    At least we console players get something!
     
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  17. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    All I am saying is, they need to either re-think their PC strategy because this TSW is a new release that is available across consoles vs a more established TS or think about a media embargo until PC release. Also, how many times have we had a TSW update go out at 10 AM. I wish they will reconsider it.
     
  18. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    It would be nearly impossible for a TSW mod to break an install. None of the mods out there do enough to the game to cause that kind of damage. The installation process for mods for TSW is so straightforward that simply removing the mod would immediately solve any potential issues. I don't know what you mean by mods not being "realistic" when they claim to be, but I do know that most of the mods I have installed are mostly just simple user experience fixes. Things like fixing the weird font spacing on destination screens in HBL, removing the annoying "objective complete" sound, lowering the cab view in the 465, and so on.
     
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  19. TimTri

    TimTri Active Member

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    OK, so I just completed the introduction as well as the first three journey missions! I’m on PS4, but since this is the only proper first impressions thread, I think posting my thoughts on the route in general shouldn’t hurt.

    -graphics are great, even on last gen
    -performance is good (much better than HMA, a bit worse than ECW); stutters were infrequent & very short; FPS were solid, even in busy stations like Glasgow Central
    -introductions and scenarios are very refreshing and interesting
    -interactivity in & around the cab is great, love the little fan!
    -stations and scenery look above average, much more “alive”! Also saw a good amount of passengers compared to other routes
    -only weird thing so far: the headlights are SO dim. Did the evening scenario involving Mount Florida and had to make sure I had activated the headlights multiple times because I didn’t see anything at all. That could be realistic of course, just something I noticed while playing.
     
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  20. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    I can’t say for certain whether the headlights are realistic in this case but I have heard many times, both here and elsewhere that train headlights are not designed for the driver to see but for the train to be seen by others.
     
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  21. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    And yet it's happened and some have had known issues in the past, especially between TSW2k and TSW2

    When people claim their pack is a realistic patch and yet leave out things like splash logos that are applied all across the towns in question.
    Don't claim to be realistic (inferring that DTG are not) and then leave things out
     
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  22. guardupfront

    guardupfront Active Member

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    Correct
     
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  23. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    I have brought the route and find out its already installed.
     
  24. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    In order to see a light, the light must be a light source, not just a bit of bright paint, or a dead "glow" texture. Otherwise you would not be able to see the light in the dark, at all, from any distance.

    It is true that until the 1960s there was no particular philosophy in GB on having lights that would light up 1000 yards of track ahead (like in the US.... )..... as "lights to see with" (and have time to stop within service braking distance if an obstruction appears in your line of sight) ...... but any light source running at 12v or 24v, including filament bulbs, would shed a significant cone of light to a radius of about 100 yards, and in enough intensity to bounce off tunnel walls, speed restriction signs in the cess, gantry posts, signal gantry ladders, platform edges, terminus buffers, passengers, and, indeed for a train cab with an unobstructed view, a view of the track ahead, so that the driver can see from the cab on a dark night.

    If a driver did not need to see unlit trackside signs at night, then the driver would not need to see them during the day either, and so there would be no need for any such signs. But drivers do need to see the signs at night, and to see them, they use the train's front lights.

    The Class 314 is depicted in Cathcart as being equipped with an additional super-bright headlight on top of the filament bulb marker lights, which is also not assigned as a light-source in TSW.

    Human eyes are incredibly sensitive to reflected light, especially when there isn't any ambient light. Most surfaces reflect light. Human eyes can see light reflected from surfaces, even when the light is very weak, say from a 1.5v filament bulb in a pen-torch, and so would absolutely see light reflected from a 12v or 24v source.
     
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  25. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    The Station Lights and Train lights are terrible in the Dark.
    At some stations you don’t see anything
     
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  26. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Train headlights in the UK, up until recently were there so the train would be seen by track workers and members of the public. They were not there so that the driver could see the line in front of him or her, like a cars headlights lighting up a country lane. I have seen this commented on so many times by actual drivers. I have heard drivers saying that when inspecting the track at night in a diesel loco they had to hang out of the side door with a bardic lamp as the loco's headlamps were like having two candles on the front of the locomotive. Drivers know the route and are expected to know every speed limit change, every signal etc, it is called route knowledge. Steam engine drivers had often one or two small lamps and would certainly not have lit up the track from the smokebox with the driver being often many feet away on the footplate. The exception to this was the class 120 DMU's allocated to Landore for the Central Wales line which had car rally headlights with a dip function which were only to be used along unfenced sections of the Central Wales line so the driver could spot sheep ahead, although as trains take some time to stop I am not sure how successful they would have been.

    Certainly when the class 314 was conceived this would have still been the case as I think they only started fitting high intensity headlights to trains in the UK in the mid 80's or so and certainly many first generation units withdrawn in the early 1990's hadn't been fitted with them by then.

    However I don't know if the class 314 is realistically modelled or not but there are some issues with night time driving on both DTG train simulators.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
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  27. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully when they upgrade to 4.26, dtg will finally improve night time lighting as it is not very good. Lighting is an important part of any game so I don´t get why dtg haven´t improved the night time lighting. It definitely is not an issue with UE4
     
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  28. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you, with "recently" being "the 1970s".

    I also agree with you that lights would be seen by track workers and members of the public - and to be seen, those lights would need to emit light. That light reflects off nearby surfaces which can be clearly seen being lit up from the driving position of an EMU like the Class 314.

    I agree with you, GB has had a relatively closed system for railway operations (signalled, and mostly fenced off), and GB train drivers do not normally need to see 1000 yards ahead. But they do need to see speed limit signs at night, and the front lights on recent trains (since the 1970s) facilitate that.

    I agree with you, not every single diesel loco has lighting that will light up the track ahead for the purpose of track inspection - that's why a lot of stock got retro-fitted with super-bright headlamps, like the Class 314 as depicted in TSW Cathcart Circle (but without a working light source).

    I agree with you, drivers acquire route knowledge, and in order to use that route knowledge to navigate at night, they need to be able to identify track layout, structures, and signs, and to identify these things they need to be able to see them - not lit up like a stage show.... but enough to navigate by. They do not use a compass, or naviagte by the stars, they use the light reflected off mileposts and SRs, and they use environmental lights (also lacking in Cathcart).

    I agree with you, although I note that the Class 314 is not a steam engine, and the driver of the Class 314 is at the front sitting behind a large glass window.

    I agree with you - in some circumstances trains were historically fitted with even brighter lights that light up the track ahead within service braking distance

    I agree with you - although the Class 314 ran until December 2019. Cathcart Circle's Class 314 is depicted as carrying a high intensity headlight, but without a functioning light-source. The light even has its own switch (as demonstrated by Matt when he switched it on, but then very quickly turned it off when he realised it had no effect).

    I agree with you - and If making sure that British trains are depicted without a light source is such a priority for DTG, then maybe they should re-visit all of the rolling stock that they made in TS2012 which were fitted with light sources - that's basically every diesel and electric loco/unit for the last fifteen years. How did they get it so wrong, for so long.....? Or... or..... maybe they got right.... and light bounces off things like speed restriction signs.
     
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  29. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    An issue with a mod doesn’t mean your install is broken. So while mods for TSW2020 were not compatible with TSW2, any issue could immediately be resolved by just removing them from the dlc folder. I don't consider this to be breaking a install. To me breaking an install means core files were corrupted or ruined and the whole game has to be reinstalled from scratch. I understand your concerns with mods, but they are definitely not dangerous or risky to use, at least in TSW. I’m looking forward to what the PC community will do to fix and enhance little things on Cathcart once it releases.
     
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  30. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    No recently being the early 1990's. They didn't start fitting high intensity headlights regularly till the mid 80's often as loco's and units were refurbished.. The class 50's on refurbishment in the early 80's received them.

    Many first generation DMU's were running without high intensity headlights on withdrawal in the early 1990's.
     
  31. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I guess those drivers whose have recounted their actual experiences were lying then!
     
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  32. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    3C3B2FE0-357D-46FF-A1A6-F6B41F7CF939.jpg E8BDFAA3-95FC-45C7-89F0-96CEF77E2F96.jpeg TrainSim-Matt The Stations at Night are really bad, because the lights are not showing the Bahnsteig or have the impact to light well in TSW.
     
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  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not the core game, each DLC is a separate piece of software, hence fixes have to be installed separately, so to me breaking in this instance means where a route or asset (a single purchasable item) becomes unusable
     
  34. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    How can you compare those?
    The top station has one row of lights, the other is a main station with loads of lights... apples and oranges?
     
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  35. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    I agree it's far too dark, I've been through the circle at night many times and all the stations are bright enough to see. the same brightness you'd see up/down on the street. But comparing it to Glasgow Queen Street makes no sense. Queen Street is a major terminus with loads of lighting, Cathcart is nowhere near that.
     
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  36. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Someone posted a shorter station How it lights at night from the Route in a thread as Compared from real life
     
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  37. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I would agree the station lights do look a bit too dim, although it is not really a fair comparison with the station in the photo. The lights on the unit look okay though.
     
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  38. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    Don't you guys have your own forum? You are now just rubbing salt on the wound. lol. jk. Glad it is up to HMA. That is my favorite route in TSW2 so far.
     
  39. Tanglebones

    Tanglebones Active Member

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    I think a key difference between those drivers and what synthetic.angel is saying is dark adaptation. Driving a train at night, internal cab lights will be off and gauges dimmed down to bare minimum so that the drivers eyes can adjust to the darkness. That, in turn, will help augment their route knowledge by being able to spot visual clues to know where there. There have been times in Clinchfield when things are so dark, I can't even tell if I'm in a tunnel or not. That is too dark, IMO, and lighting should be adjusted upward a bit to account for dark adaptation.

    I'm also on astronomy forums, where the key message is a legitimate complaint over how bright our cities are and there is no true darkness any more. I should, perhaps, tell them to set up their scopes in a TSW2 game where they can have all the darkness they need...
     
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  40. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I also think the missing issue here is that our eyes adjust to the night, indeed we do not see in colour below a certain level of light, something that photos of night struggle to capture. Rods and cones and all that. So really the question is not whether the game looks like photos but whether it looks right compared to what you actually see if you are standing there.
     
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  41. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes I agree night time lighting is a problem, it isn't great on TS1 either, recently driving on the Weardale network in the dark, I couldn't even tell which way I was looking at one point until the auto fireperson opened the firebox doors and I found I was looking at the back of the tender!

    I do think playing night time services in the evening with the lights off and curtains drawn is the best idea and even then it isn't that satisfactory. I tend to avoid driving night time scenarios especially on very rural lines.

    The point I was making though is that on UK railways, certainly up to the recent past, the points of front lights was never to light the track ahead. In fact lights were never called headlights they were called marker lights.

    Maybe DTG could launch astronomy simulator as a standalone or an addon pack.
     
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  42. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Which experiences? Are you talking about track inspections..? Because, yes, I can imagine there being circumstances where drivers and crew have leaned out the door with a handheld torch to inspect the track, maybe in poor weather conditions, with very heavy rain/snow of thick fog, occasionally, when they would have preferred the train to have a more effective light for the job. And then truthfully recounted their experiences.

    But that is not the same as saying that every single British diesel and electric loco/unit, through all time, have always had such poor lighting fitted at the front, that in all weather and light conditions that all of them have always had, all of the time, in every instance, such poor light output that they always, every single time, fail to shed any light on anything else other than a retina, and that even if such light shone on a cat's retina, that absolutely nothing would reflect back, ever. So there's no need for a light source in TSW, including Cathcart.

    Because that is the justification that DTG uses when they fit a glow texture to a loco/unit light, and do not give it a light source, and then say "British trains don't really have lights... not in the normal sense, I mean, they have lights, and you can see them, but the light has magical non-reflecting properties.... etc... and whenever a British train is around, you will find that all other objects have the am-a-zing property of always absorbing all of the light... you know, even if they have a mirrored surface.... mirrors just don't work around British trains... that's the thing with British trains, you know... they have what's known in the trade as a "dark aura".... even the military have been exploring this strange feature as a "cloaking" effect, because if you advance along a battlefield with 5000 tanks at night, as long as there is a Class 314 nearby, nobody wiill be able to see the tanks - they get "cloaked in darkness".... and that's how the Klingons developed their stealth technology.... by building their "Bird of Prey" spaceship with the front carriage of a Class 314 towed behind it....." etc...., as you might have heard down the pub.

    And you know..... I get it - they are using UE to take advantage of the environmental lighting effects, and are being a bit greedy (or inefficient) when it comes to controlling shadow draw distance, or perhaps a bit slack when assigning attributes to assets... or not very effective when it comes to optimising route builds for British routes (and let's face it, Cathcart is a third the size of HMA in terms of assets, given the download sizes), so it's a hassle to put lighting on the front of the trains.... but really... if it is such a hassle... why bother at all.... why not just give up on train simulators and go back to doing something that doesn't involve much light, like maybe make a daffodil bulb storage company, or something.....?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
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  43. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    No, that was just one example!
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Older British trains did not have headlights which lit the track up, it is a fact. They only really started to in the 80's and even then high intensity headlights did not become compulsory till much later.

    And I didn't suggest that there was no problem with TSW's lighting or with the lights on the 314, although one screenshot I have seen at night seems to suggest the high intensity headlight emits a decent amount of light. I will wait till I eventually purchase it or when enough people who actually own the route have given their opinions.
     
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  45. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes - that would make sense. One example. But one counter example doesn't make a rule for everything.

    There have been commercial airliners in the past that have taken off and then a bit later they have crashed, and survivors have truthfully reported the crash, and crash invetigators have found the wreckage, and proved that the survivors were telling the truth....but ..... .......that doesn't mean that every single aircraft that takes off crashes.
     
  46. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well then I suggest you look yourself. There are plenty of comments from drivers on various forums.

    If you look a photos of BR diesels at night you will see for yourself, or you can just carry on and be patronising, as ever!
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
  47. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    I would totally love to see a military simulation that does this. Totally will pay for it.

    Gave me a good chuckle. It do be like that sometimes.
     
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  48. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    Southern Region was always slightly behind, but the last 33s (those still working) gained HI lights in 1993 I believe. Also as I said in my earlier post, the generation of lights fitted to stock like 314s and many locos is still pretty useless, and I'd say the last maybe 20 years is when headlights really became bright enough for anything other than being seen by other people.
     
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  49. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    And to add to that, any driver with experience with both will be able to describe the big difference between Mk1 (tungsten) and Mk2 (HID), let alone Mk3 (LED) BMAC lighting equipment, and that is all seen as 'modern' kit by most.
     
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  50. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, I think all Southern stock only had illuminated route blinds until the head intensity headlights started to be fitted in the 1980's.
     

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