PC Midland Mainline Tsc + Tsw3 Comparison Images

In what context is insinuating someone is stupid enough to drink cool aid or is a snow flake just for offering an alternative opinion to your own, not having a go?

 

No alternative opinion was offered, and the post was totally irrelevant to the thread. He was having a go and pseudo-moderating, which he tends to do rather a lot to plenty of people.

Anyway, speaking of things that have absolutely nothing to do with the thread.....

 

The coolaid comment was completely directed at some one offering a different opinion on the topic.

 

As has already been said, and acknowledged by JD further up, that was aimed at no one. It was a general, off the cuff comment.

Enough of this anyway. This is totally irrelevant to the thread and will likely get removed anyway.

 

Hopefully along with yourself

 

Wow. Nice.

 

Ooo dont like it when the boot is on the other foot do you?

Think Im going to stand back and accept being told I drink coolaid just for disagreeing with you?

I dont find it off the cuff remark, and yes I am offended by it, even if JD thinks its perfectly acceptable.

 

I've read the whole thread, and it definitely seems like you think that if any single person likes TSW3 better or are happy with the graphics, then they must have very broken eyeballs or be that stupid a cabbage would beat them in a general knowledge test, and that's taking your comments in the context they are meant for. At this point your just a broken record that can't seem to play any other songs apart from the lighting is poo or I hate that I spent money on this trash, if TSC makes you happy and that's your bag go enjoy it dude, your just proving yourself to be a troll that wants to bait other people into a argument, and if I was a betting man I bet this other username that you mentioned in the thread was banned for doing this too..........

 

Having multiple accounts is against the forum rules anyway. Seems like the admin here only apply rules as when it suits

 

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-sim-world-forum-rules.23560/

 

This topic seems to be getting a bit out of hand now.

But I do agree with JetWash, the stream last week featuring MML in TSW was very underwhelming.

 

You’d be wrong, sorry. You’ve also inferred something that isn’t there but I can’t help that.

Jalio I couldn’t agree more, it’s completely ridiculous but entirely as expected sadly.

 

Some cool heads required here I think. What I think some people here are missing is that nobody thinks there is anything inherently wrong with TSW. It could and indeed should be the future of train simulation. UE4 is a nice looking engine and there is so much potential. Unfortunately this potential is not being realised due to what can only be described as, yes I'll say it, laziness, shoddy route building, poor quality control and an 'it'll do' attitude.

- How can a route be released with no cable trunking along the ENTIRE route?
- Why is the foliage so sparse along the side of the track?
- How can a train be released with the wrong wipers and no GSM-r when we have been TOLD by the devs that this is now a standard feature?

None of this is because TSW itself isn't good enough. It's because of decisions which are made during the production process and when issues are identified, they are either never fixed, or it takes an age to do so. It's the result of an attitude of things being released when they are 'just good enough' rather than taking pride in your work and going the extra mile to add those finer details that really make a route or loco. The Skyhook rep in the MML stream said they have gone for 'representation' rather than 'reproduction'. That says it all really.

What makes it worse is that we see glimpses of what can be achieved in TSW. TSG clearly take pride in their work and I'm sure Just Trains and ATS will too. But Rivet, Skyhook and DTG are too often releasing rushed and sub-par content. Seeing Niddertalbahn and then three weeks later seeing MML is like staying in a 5 star hotel one night and then staying in a B&B the next but paying the same price for both.

 

Exactly! Just for my own sanity I’ve gone back and read all of my posts in this thread and they simply don’t infer or read how some people are choosing to interpret them. There’s not much I can do about that sadly.

 

JetWash willingly deleted his old account before creating the new one. It is not ban evasion.

It is not all about rain and high towers.

Cheers

 

I also find the comparison a bit unfair, because the images from TSC are real screenshots from the game, and of course they are crisp and clear. In addition, as has already been said, with several mods in action and then of course the whole thing was recorded under perfect conditions. As a counterpart, with the (original) TSW we have rather blurry screenshots of a stream (here the quality is always worse) and when darkness sets in. No comparison should be like this!

The goal actually seems to have been clear, namely to make the TSC look better. In my opinion, it didn't work because the TSC (which offers more details on the route) just looks too sterile and model railroad-like to me. More details or not.

In order to make a "real" comparison, you would have had to take screenshots of the TSC under the same daily conditions and I bet it would have done significantly worse than the TSW.

In general, however, I think that the Niddertalbahn MUST be the benchmark for future new TSW DLC! At least to some extent. Not every new English track should feel like any other, because the new track feels a bit like that after the stream (I have to admit).

But even if the route from the TSC seems to be more detailed here in the comparison, I'm still with the TSW. Because of the feeling of participating in the railway world (first person perspective) and of course the timetables (which I mainly play). Because simply get off at a station, look at the next display and take over the next train. There's just something about it that TSC can't give me and won't give me in the future either.

 

At the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, the images are to demonstrate the gulf in class of the route building. They are not intended to be a comparison between TSC and TSW as games. I admit that I have mentioned (in response to subsequent posts) that, in my opinion based on having played both games extensively, on balance I believe TSC is the better train simulator. I have also mentioned (more than once I might add) that TSC is harder to get into, more expensive and requires extensive third party content to get the best from it. This is also the third time I’ve said this, ‘vanilla vs vanilla, TSW wins everyday’.

The whole point of my original post was to look at each image of TSW and compare it to the corresponding image for TSC. What I am trying, and I guess seemingly failing, to get across here is the care and attention in the Just Trains route is entirely absent from the SkyHook version. One route is in the sim which was renamed ‘Classic’ (read ‘out to pasture’) and one is yet to be released. Surely the newer one should be better? (that’s a rhetorical question). People also levelled the accusation that it wasn’t a fair comparison because the time of day was different so I went back, edited the scenario and re-shot it under the exact same circumstances to make it as fair as I could.

In addition to calling out the poor finish of the route demonstrated in the stream, my intention was also to highlight the complete lack of consistency in TSW DLC. DTG locked this game down so they had total control over the output, yet we go from the most detailed route to date to one that looks like it’s half finished. Even though SkyHook are a third party, DTG have to take responsibility for the quality control, surely? I specifically concentrated on the route building, and purposefully didn’t mention the issues with the rolling stock. Hopefully those will be sorted before next week.

I honestly don’t know how to make my intention any clearer than that.

 

You say that vanilla vs vanilla TSW is better and then complain that a vanillla route isnt as good as modded route.

Its been said time and time again that you are comparing apples to oranges and you even admit this yourself.

 

No, that isn’t what I’ve said at all. You are intentionally and consistently twisting what I write to fit your ‘TSW can do no wrong’ agenda. I’m done replying to you because it’s clearly pointless and taking the thread down repeated rabbit holes.

 

I get that. It was about which version you think looks more detailed and therefore better.

But comparisons are only really meaningful under the same conditions - otherwise you just want to go in one direction. With the "bad" pictures from the TSW stream, you will certainly not be able to see some details at all or they will blur, so that the picture will of course look even "worse" (which is mainly due to the time of day, the darkness, the motion blur and the quality of the image).

I admitted that according to the screenshots shown, the TSC route looks more detailed. But is it better in the end? It's in the eye of the beholder and not like you said it has to be obvious to everyone!

 

You did say that ‘the goal seems to have been clear, to make TSC look better’. That isn’t the case. In my opinion the Just Trains route is much much better, but I was not intentionally distorting anything to give that impression. They are simply straight screen grabs captured using the Win + Print Screen key combo. Nothing more, nothing less.

All I can say then is if you don’t like the screenshots I’ve taken then the timestamps are all there. Pull up the stream on a device of your choice and compare it for yourself. If you’re able to get better quality images by all means post them and I’ll swap out the ones I captured. I’m absolutely confident that it will look no different though.

I promise that the screenshots are not twisted to try and show TSW in a bad light. They are straight screengrabs in the highest resolution possible on YouTube (1080p) taken on a 4K monitor. I made the judgement that given the purpose was to compare the difference in the standard of route building (i.e. number and quality of placed assets / models), for that purpose alone they were acceptable.

The one last thing on this point I’ll say is that I hope to God Just Trains and ATS do themselves justice with their first routes. Their content for TSC is the best there is, I pray that they can transfer this standard in to TSW. I absolutely promise that if this is the case I’ll be here singing the praises of the content.

 

Not at all, the trade off being compromises always have to be made.

And a quick look at my posts will see that I frequently critic TSW when I feel it is justified. But yeah just go around and insinuate I am a fan boy/TSW apologist simply because I dare to disagree with you. You are an abusive bully with your name calling.

 

Jetwash, you need to take a step back, you are muddying the waters yourself with your attitude. This is a real shame as your central point that there is more care and attention paid in the route building on TSC is absolutely valid.

However you simply can't help but snipe at anyone who thinks TSW looks better, when as you acknowledge the engine is much newer and the reflections etc are something TSC just can't compete with.

Instead of sticking to pointing out the additional details in the TSC route you imply everyone must be blind or drinking cool-aid or a rabid fanboy, at which point you auto-lose your argument because you resort to ad hominem attacks.

Instead you should be pointing out the key difference:- the difference between the quality of the rendering versus what is actually there to be rendered.

 

Ive played this from both console and PC perspectives. As a console user, I was just glad to have a decent looking simulator to play. From a PC perspective there are definitely times when I feel a new release is only offering the bare minimum. Without modding. Im not sure Id be interested in this release.

 

On the topic of these two versions of MML screenshots, I would say the JT one does look better in terms of custom assets, the bridge assets in your screenshots are a night & day difference. JT are meticulous with their route building, I actually own all of them except for Hope Valley as I uninstalled TSC before it released because of laptop storage reasons. Each extension JT puts out has been nothing short of amazing.

On the other hand, I feel that I can't fairly comment on Skyhook's version yet because the route isn't out until Tuesday, where I'll be able to play it for myself. I only watched a tiny segment of the blurry stream to hear the 158 sounds and that aspect, I was very happy with. I haven't followed the livestreams properly since Sam & Nat stopped appearing on them but that's a whole other topic.

At the end of the day, Skyhook and Just Trains are two completely different developers with their own approaches to route development and their own standards as to what is acceptable to release. We in the community are also individuals that have our own expectations when it comes to gameplay, route details & sounds. There's always going to be a clash in what's acceptable and what isn't, that's fine.

I love JT's MML but I'm willing to give Skyhook's a chance too, I've pre-ordered it. If the gameplay's trouble free, I think I'll generally have a great time with my purchase as that's where my first focus is and I'm already happy with the sounds. Would I turn down better scenery assets? Absolutely not! But it doesn't make the route a no purchase for me. On the other hand, JetWash wants more asset/scenery detail in the route, feels the route isn't up to their standard because of it and won't support it with a purchase that's perfectly valid too.

The only time scenery has truly bothered me in a TSW release was Arosa line. The style of that one felt really off, almost cartoony even. I don't know how else to describe it. It wouldn't have felt out of place in The Wind Waker.

When it comes to TSC and TSW though, I don't tend to do game-to-game comparisons. However, it's going to be really interesting to see how JT's first TSW route turns out and how it'll compare to previously released UK content. I'm really looking forward to seeing how their level of route building translates between games.

 

Where has he attacked those that have said tsw is better than tsc? All I've seen is him comparing the tsc version of the route to the tsw version and some users here taking his words out of context

 

A non railway enthusiast and non gaming friend of mine sometimes comes round and drives some trains which was always on TSC. I showed him the "new" simulator a few months ago after I had reinstalled TSW and showed him East Coastway, his first words were that looks much more realistic. That is obviously one tiny bit of anecdotal evidence.

I also think streams don't always portray very well what the sim looks like on your own system, sometimes the streams aren't the best quality.

I haven't seen anything on the stream to worry me about what I will see when I download the route on Tuesday.

I do honestly think we should just enjoy the sim of our choice and moan and campaign when we don't like a certain aspect. Everyone sees things differently, everyone has different standards, everyone has a different approach to using the sim so why not just let bygones be bygones and enjoy what you have and let those who you disagree with enjoy what they enjoy. I have both sims and don't need my eyes opened as I know what I see as more realistic and I know what aspects of TSC I find more immersive.

 

I'm not to bothered about the sky visuals. Even if the skies looks aren't up to standard, I still enjoy it.
What does mar it for me is bad scenery modeling, like on the Schnellfahrstrecke Kassel - Wurzburg, where you have bushes floatin in midair inside of tunnels and missing overhead power lines. London Commuter where you have the odd tree branch smack you in the face!
But still, these issues don't ruin the game play for me.
All I want is for the new MML and the Peaks route not to be a white elephant like SoS, filled with bugs!

 

Personally, I do also feel as though that the TSW images look more attractive than the TSC ones. There's this weird feel I get with TSC, like it's slightly too punchy with the contrast and not as saturated in terms of the colors. The lighting in TSW3 looks fantastic, not only during dawn/dusk, but during daytime as well, which greatly aides it.

One thing I will admit however is that TSW does lack the lineside equipment/clutter that TSC has. Not just with Midland, but with other routes as well, I want to STRONGLY encourage route artists to give it more consideration. I think Great Western Express did a pretty decent job when it comes to this, and should perhaps serve as an example. I don't like seeing the way the gravel blends into the grass textures, with nothing else to cover it up. This has a HUGE impact on immersion and the general vibes a route has. To me, this is what can give a route some interesting personality, whether it's maintained well or not, just as it would in the real world.

 

I would agree the overall look of TSW appears more "realistic" at first glance, than TSC. However recent TSW output now appears to be suffering from the sort of chocolate bar economics we see all too often today, where it is announced that the price per bar unfortunately has to go up due to inflation (+ extra cost of Ukrainian chocolate beans), and at the same time the size of the actual chocolate bar is discreetly reduced (unsurprisingly unannounced). So we have more expensive routes yet seemingly even less budget for extra details and extravagant things like freight services or half-decent timetables in some cases.

Mind you, the lineside clutter that adds so much to the general railway ambience and immersion has always been conspicuous by it's absence in TSW routes, so it's not surprising it's also missing from MML. Indeed I have been quite vocal in the past on the subject but these days prefer to take a more stoic attitude and not bother wasting my breath. TSW is what it is, and these things are simply not budgeted for, nor will they ever be. However once in a blue moon a route like Niddertalbahn comes along, that shows us how it could be if ordinary civilians were permitted access to the editor to enhance the existing catalogue.

 

Knowing that this thread is not about visual appearance but differences in route and asset building, I just want to say that people often forget that TSC has ingame options for contrast, ambient light and sunlight intensity. That's why many TSC shots you see are lacking contrast because they're running on default settings.

This is very useful as each route has its own ToD files - and therefore own lighting and shadowing values. Routes like Clinchfield or N-Line for example are too bright in default settings, more contrast and less ambient light makes them look much better.

 

To make my point, these are shots from the (imho superior to the TSW version) TSC LGV. A summer morning, using the built-in 3D SilverLining Weather engine, just added a bit of contrast via the menu - no mods used. It looks really good to me.

 

In many aspects of simulation I would argue that TSW has long since surpassed TSC. The ceiling of Simugraph is way higher than TSC. Even if there are some really ingenious developers and modders that have bypassed the capabilities of the native game code in TSC there are certain things that you simply cannot achieve in TSC, no matter how much you mod the engine. Wheelslip/slide and air simulation being the prime examples. Of course, just because Simugraph is really powerful doesn't mean that all TSW vehicles will be more realistic than the TSC counterparts, you still have to actually utilize the capabilities of the physics engine.

 

Interesting. I know it’s slightly off topic, but how would you rate the wheelslip in TSW vs AP’s wheelslip in TSC?

It’s not great in either, but I’ve always felt it seemed a bit more scripted in TSW, like an equation of weather+season+throttle position = slip all the time up to a given speed. Vary any one of those elements = no slip at all. It can feel a bit like that in TSC too, but I’d say it’s less so. I’ve also experienced really bad slide in TSC which I can’t recall having had in TSW.

 

I don't know much about Simugraph to be honest, but I get your point. TSC must be fed with the correct data, and the rest like wheelslip and air brake is achieved not by blueprint modding, but by Lua scripting. Searchlight Simulations have pushed this to an incredible limit.

So we've got the third topic. Simulation. There's good and bad in both games. Still I feel the TSW world to be kind of cold and empty, can't exactly pinpoint why. And gameplaywise TSC is my favourite option. MML not featuring Ratcliffe PS for freight is just too limited. When you've played the JustTrains network there's no way the TSW version could impress me. UE4 can be used to enhance the experience, but also to cover up and blur sloppy route building.

And in the end, TSW routes are just too expensive for what they offer imho. Can't see TSW getting the variety in stock an routes TSC has, and that may be the reason it is still being the most played train simulator.

 

And how can Simugraph explain the 105 psi brake pipe pressure display on the rear of a GP38 consist on SPG? I can fix stuff like this on TSC, but on TSW I'm waiting forever because DTG do not care. Simugraph don't help there. It's the overall package that TSC offers that is more simulator than game.

I accept that each of you has its own opinion, and so do I. I play both games, but TSW has just this arcade feel, UE4 can't help it.

 

Steam loco slipping in TSW is quite appalling, the Jubilee will slip at speed given certain combinations of throttle and cutoff, which I doubt would have happened IRL.

 

JetWash It's been a while since I used TSC (and AP EPs). I remember that the Sprinter EPs were quite convincing, owing to the fact that AP has a lot of real world data and a (plural?) capable scripter. However, afaik the basically sidestep the native wheelslip in TSC (which to be fair is quite lacking). The benefit of this is that they can control the WSP behaviour like they want but the downside is that many physical effects are simply not possible to achieve (this is more apparent on heavy freight trains though since the slip simulation of TSC just completely breaks down, for DMUs it's not that apparent).

In TSW with Simugraph the benefit is that "what you see is what you get". If you see slip there is actually a physics simulation of slip. However, Simugraph is very much garbage in garbage out. If the parameters are incorrect then it will produce nonsense. The wheel slip/slide simulation in TSW can look quite robotic because unfortunately (for now) it is very deterministic with little random variance. This can either be solved by core changes (I know it doesn't feel like it sometimes but there is very much still a lot of ongoing development in this regard with TSW) or side-stepped. The latter is something I have experimented with and I have found some interesting ways to make it more random and more dynamic. The dynamic aspect is something that I have already implemented (Acela for example has different adhesion depending on if the vehicle is in the front or to the rear).

I guess to summarize my point: Simugraph is very powerful and can achieve really tremendous results if you actually fully utilize it and have the right data.

torfmeister My reply above probably answers some of your questions. If the parameters are wrong the physics will be wrong. If the parameters are correct (well tuned etc) then Simugraph will always be superior because you get all these really neat emergent effects that would be (nearly at least) intractable to manually program. While I really like Searchlight's products (the AC44 is great) there are some physics aspects of this product that are incorrect simply because the physics engine in TSC just can't provide enough freedom. For example the gradient and curve drag is (afaik) only calculated from the lead locomotive which means that if the gradient or curvature is changing at several positions throughout the train the total drag will be incorrect. Also the air simulation is approximated from only the lead locomotive (since trains in TSC are treated basically as a single "point"). Now to be fair, there are some flaws in Simugraph for very long trains so I don't want to give this point completely in TSW's favour. However, it is probably more likely that Simugraph will be updated to solve these issues than TSC.

OldVern I agree that the Steam locomotive simulation is not perfect (or close to it) in TSW at the moment, but I think it will improve with time. Steam engine physics is really tricky

EDIT: Let me give an example of a physics effect that is definitely not available in native TSC (and probably not simulated on any TSC addons, definitely not per vehicle or even per wheel): Brake heat and moisture effects. This is something that I actually already have implemented on the Acela (but it is not available publicly... yet)

 

In describing Simugraph in that way I think you’ve summed up in a way what I find so frustrating about TSW. Excuse the completely random analogy, but all the ingredients are there except they’re either being put in the pot in the wrong quantities, the dish is being cooked at the wrong temperature or the seasoning is off. Sometimes it’s all of the above. Very occasionally the meal is good and gives glimpses into the potential of the restaurant.

With a different head chef, or perhaps a higher priority placed on quality over quantity it could be Michelin starred, but as it is it’s a greasy spoon cafe on the A1. The unfortunate thing is the customer is still being charged Michelin Star prices yet they keep coming back because they believe the head chef tries his/her best, they have a bit of a soft spot for the place and the Management keep promising that one day the food will be better. Every year said management give the greasy spoon a new lick of paint and a grand re-opening but very quickly the quality of the food reverts to type. Occasionally they bring in a guest chef who adds just enough variety to the menu to keep people interested, but unfortunately some of these guest chefs are only on their first day cooking, so the quality is all over the place too. Luckily for the Management, this greasy spoon is the only food for miles around so people have no choice but to stomach it. Sometimes, a greasy spoon is just what you want so they get just enough custom to keep the place ticking over, never really going anywhere good, but never really looking like they’ll go out of business either.

In a nutshell, I wish the absolutely massive potential of this game was being realised and I don’t feel like it is. I figured by year 6 we’d be further on than the quality of route building demonstrated on the MML stream. I guess you could say the same about Simugraph. I have never selected step 3 braking in the rain in TSC and had the whole unit instantaneously derail vertically up in the air.

 

Interesting. I would say brake heat is doable by scripting, just as traction motor overheating is done on the AP Class 40 for example. It just works the other way round - Simugraph is bottom-up simulation, whereas TSC is top-down. Both need correct data.

 

DTG JD please overthink your anti spam protection for known members, couldn't edit my previous post so deleted and reposted - now it awaits mod approval.

 

I completely agree with JetWash’s original point: the attention to detail and the amount of clutter that brings the TSC version of MML to life is completely missing from the TSW version, leading to a lifeless and empty experience. This has nothing to do with visual fidelity or modding/vanilla but is all a mentality issue.

the thing that strikes me the most is the usage of completely wrong assets, especially bridges. IRL and in the TSC version, each individual bridge is unique and provides a sense of direction and location whereas the TSW version uses very generic and bland bridge assets that provide nothing. It’s just a shame.

 

Agree, this is one reason (apart from missing freight) why I won't buy it.

 

Amen.

 

The good news is that Just Trains have shown they know how to make scenery rich routes in TSC so as we all know Just Trains is currently working on a route for TSW and I cant wait to see what they will achieve with there level of detail with TSW graphics.

 

Yes if I remember rightly their route is set between 1950 and 1990 so hopefully this and the detail might make it the best in TSW. I am very much looking forward to what they can do with the game to push it that extra step because they have done a brilliant job in TSC overall.

 

Its the same for me

 

It will defiantly be something to look out for. I 100% believe Just Trains wont let us down but only time will tell.

 

I am currently unable to post or edit as I wish on a particular thread because of this problem. Most annoying, particularly when even the most innocuous posts can't get past the apparent censorship. I've been running into this issue on and off for the last few weeks.

I've been on this forum apparently since December, 2016, though goodness knows I can't remember that far back. After that many years I think I can be trusted.

I have never knowingly used any bad language or called anyone an unpleasant name, yet I am singled out when trolls and others are constantly breaking forum rules and calling people, including DTG employees, very offensive names.

I am very upset.

 

You’re not being singled out, I’m sure. Like you say, why would you be? I believe it’s because the edit you’re trying to make is too small. If it’s a simple change in punctuation or something equally small it won’t have it. The daft thing is I think you could make your edit and add a nonsense sentence to the end of the post and then once the change has saved delete the sentence. It doesn’t seem to be no edits, just no small edits. At least that’s what I’ve found.

Hope that helps.