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Ntp Huddersfield Signalling (using Br Heavy Freight)

Discussion in 'Known Issues & Bug Reports' started by Trim, Feb 3, 2020.

  1. Trim

    Trim Active Member

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    I have mentioned elsewhere (https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/ntp-inappropriate-routing-signals-and-speed-limits.20295/) about trains being routed inappropriately through Huddersfield with the very strong suspician that the up line to down line crossover for access to the shunting line is signalled incorrectly.

    I have also had doubts about just how many non-passenger trains are routed through the down loop, outside platform 8. However, I now find that this route is not correctly signalled at all, or rather, the down direction signals for exiting the station are not correctly interlocked. The last signal controlling the exit from the down loop to the down main at the north end of the station is HU115, shown on the right in this screenshot. The train alongside is 6E36 Stalybridge - Healey Mills, waiting between turns. As you can see, it is stopped well beyond the signal.
    upload_2020-2-3_21-12-34.jpeg

    It needs to stop this far forward for the rear of the train to clear the main line, although I guess from its being well beyond the platform 8 up starter that it is sat on the track circuit protecting the entrance to the station in the down direction:
    upload_2020-2-3_21-31-14.jpeg

    It should be clear that, even accepting that the rear of the train is clear of the down line into platform 4, that no train can exit any platform road in the down direction with 6E36 stopped beyond HU115, yet 6E36 is stopped here precisely to allow the 11:48 MirfieldMarsden - Leeds DMU to overtake it. This is completely unnecessary of course; the sensible thing would have been to hold 6E36 at Marsden and let the DMU out in front, but if 6E36 is allowed to run in front of the DMU at Marsden, it may as well do so all the way to Heaton Lodge, where the two trains take different routes. However, that is by the by. What the game does is have the DMU overtake the oil train in Huddersfield station, and the platform 4 down starter HU97 is duly cleared for the DMU even though the route is not protected from 6E36 in the loop.

    This is a train sim - it says so in the title - so I expect a certain level of immersion and as accurate a reflection of the prototype as can be done with a game. I expect the trains to behave like real trains and the signalling to work like real signalling. Most of all, I expect the physics to match the real world, and if you are going to let us crash 133-ton class 40s into the sides of 32-ton DMUs then make it so that the DMU derails, not the class 40, eh?
    upload_2020-2-3_22-23-25.jpeg

    Seriously, please take a good look at Huddersfield station signalling and the routing of trains through the station. I cannot help think that there has been a shunting signal omitted on the down loop beyond HU115 - there is certainly room for one in line with or even beyond HU84 on the shunting line. However, I have no idea what actual signalling there was at the time, and perhaps the game shows the signals accurately.

    If you do have to loop the oll train to allow the DMU to overtake, this could be done perfectly safely by taking it up the shunting line as you do for the down TPO.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
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  2. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Active Member

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    I think you mean the 1148 Marsden to Leeds. If I remember correctly, it is held at Marsden while the oil train passes making the Leeds train late. Surely in real life the oil train would've been held to let the passenger train leave on time.
     
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  3. Trim

    Trim Active Member

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    You are of course quite right. I'll amend my post. Presumably this is the same train you mentioned where the Marsden starter didn't clear visually, although it did in the HUD. [Edit: I've taken a look at this train leaving Marsden with an AI driver. The starter did not clear].

    Curiously, when I drove the oil train from Stalybridge I thought I'd stop at Diggle to check the length of the loop there, in conjunction with another idea I had. Consequently I was very late at Marsden and passed at 12:05 (when I saw the Leeds DMU was still sat in the platform, I made a note of the time, to check against when it was due to leave: 11:48). Really, what had the Marsden signalman been playing at? Conceivably, from where I was stopped at Diggle (right at the starter at the end of the loop) Diggle could have sent train entering section to Marsden (although strictly speaking he should not have done till I had passed the starter) and Marsden could then have offered the train forward, but everything's track circuited so the Diggle signalman would have known where I was and had ample opportunity to talk to Marsden. Of course, it was my fault really for not reporting to the box. I tried, but I couldn't find a way in.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
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  4. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Active Member

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    I thought and hoped that to provide a bit of interest, the oil train might've been looped at Diggle at some stage in the timetable to allow passenger trains to pass. I wonder if you run the oil train very late, building up a queue of trains behind, will the AI put you in the loop? I'd like to think so but I doubt it. Could be a worthwhile experiment. The other similar occurrence happens at Huddersfield where a Leeds bound DMU is held at a red while the oil train passes making the passenger train about five minutes late. From memory, this is around 2055. The DMU catches up with the oil at Mirfield where the freight train sits for several minutes. Why not hold it at Huddersfield and give the DMU the road? I love the game but sometimes odd things break the spell.
     
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  5. Trim

    Trim Active Member

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    That was why I stopped at Diggle to see how long the loop is (it'll easily hold a loco + 13 TEAs; I haven't yet gone through the whole Heavy Freight timetable to see if any down trains are longer than this). My thought was to suggest that if you were driving a freight train so that it held up the following passenger train (very easy to do with the xx40 departures from Manchester), then you would get looped at Marsden (up) or Diggle (down) before entering the extremely long section at Standedge Tunnel. My only concern though is how the entrance to Diggle loop is controlled. Can that subsidiary signal be cleared without bringing the train to a stand? If it can't, then looping at Diggle wouldn't really help.
    That is exactly the point I am trying to get across with many of my posts. The joy of this game relies on having a certain degree of immersion. I can accept poor graphical rendering (although to my mind the graphical rendering in this game is excellent) and I am not desparately put out by such things as passengers sitting in carriages in depots and sidings, but if it cannot get basic railway operation right then it quickly loses its appeal.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
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