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On Manchester-leeds.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ProfCreeptonius, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. ProfCreeptonius

    ProfCreeptonius Well-Known Member

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    Before I begin: What should be the abbreviation of Mancherster-Leeds? Northern Trans Pennine = NTP? Tell me your thoughts!


    Hello fellow community members!

    First and foremost I must say that I am pleasantly surprised with this:
    https://live.dovetailgames.com/live...3.1714453663.1543690365-1261337863.1535278405

    I have always wanted the route Manchester-Leeds in TSW and I am very happy to see it coming, I hope most of you share this feeling.

    Nonetheless, I feel the need to make this post with two purposes. First I'd like to give just little bit of information on Manchester-Leeds.
    Some general information on the Route and Rolling stock.
    I shall commence with a map of the route, courtesy of google maps
    Capture.PNG
    It takes about 50 minutes to get from Manchester to Leeds and vice-versa by train. As one can see, the intermediate stops are Manchester, Asherton-under-Lyne, Uppermill, Slaithwaite, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Batley and finally Leeds. I am not sure if these are all of them, so if anyone knows better, feel free to tell me.
    We all know the class 47 from WSR, and we'll be getting it in a new livery, intercity blue:
    999-02609.jpg
    This is a nice photo of a class 47 in that same livery. The class 47 was built from 1962 to 1968 with a total 512 units produced. The class 47 has a maximum tractive effort of about 260kN with a total power output of about 1900kW. The maximum speed is either 75 or 95 mph, which would be 120 or 150 kph.
    We'll be getting the class 101 DMU in intercity blue livery with a white stripe. This is a model image, but a very close replica of the real thing nonetheless.
    maxresdefault.jpg
    The BR101 was built from 1956 to 1960 with a total number of 41 cars preserved until today. Their max power output is about 112kw and operate in 2- 3- or 4car formations.
    And finally the class 45 in the same livery. 45128_longbridge_11585.jpg
    Here you can also see a real class 101. The class 47 was built between 1960 and 1962 with a total number of 127 units produced. Their max tractive effort is 245kN with a max power output in service of about 1500kW. The max speed of the class 45 is 90mph which is about 145kph.

    I'm very pleased with the amount of rolling stock we're getting and by the choice of the route.
    My worries
    It surprises me that DTG have increased their tempo by so much. I am hopeful that this means they've accustomed themselves to UE4 and all the technical sides of TSW much better, but I fear the worst.
    I fear that such rapid releases come at a cost - the cost of quality. I fear that we might get sub-par simulation on NTP and a very unsatisfying release. This fear is not unfounded - we've seen at least three times what happens when DTG rushes an add-on. RT came out... well you all know RT and LIRR isn't too much better either. Are we getting a RT 3.0 with this add-on? RSN, our currently all-around best DLC took longer than 3 months to release and has been patched. The distance between LIRR and NTP being announced now is roughly 20 days. (Those mathematicians out there don't kill me this is a very rough estimate) Almost 4.5 times less. Does this mean '4.5 times more efficient' or perhaps... '4.5 times worse'?
    I cannot begin to imagine the totally and utterly devastating outcome of the latter situation and I do not want to try and explain what will happen. We need to know what these more frequent add-ons mean and what we should expect. Dovetail Games, you all have seen what happened (due to, in my opinion, faulty communication) with LIRR (https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/the-end-of-tsw.12518/page-7#post-57969) and RT and the bugs, I urge you not to make the same mistake three times. For your own good.

    Cheers,
    Prof
     

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  2. ProfCreeptonius

    ProfCreeptonius Well-Known Member

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  3. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Well-Known Member

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    Good analysis! I wouldn't be so hasty and come to the conclusion that route creation will stay at this tempo. It just might be that DTG is intimately familiar with this route for some reason and is able to create it faster? I don't know, just my personal speculation.

    If this tempo does continue, then your concerns about quality do become valid.
     
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  4. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    They did say they been working on 3 DLC’s did they not? Wouldn’t this be the third of the three?
     
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  5. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    They are rushing to get the DLC out before Christmas as this is the biggest time for sales. LIRR was a sales flop, so that has probably added pressure to get the next DLC out. There were basic things missed in LIRR, rain through the roof, trains hitting supports, passengers on the roof and tracks, so we can safely assume that the QA for this next route won't be thorough either.

    In the announcement thread I've asked some questions about bugs present in the other UK routes and whether they'll still be present in this DLC. For example, flashing yellow aspects on colour light signals, exhaust on AI trains and coach doors opening even if the train is too long for the platform. Maybe I'm cynical, but I doubt I'll get a reply.

    There's also a lack of freight which I find frustrating and a poor decision, given the last UK route also lacks freight. They could have created a BR 12t coal open, a BR 12t van and a 20t Brake Van, released those with the Class 33 for WSR to make that DLC better value and then used them again for this route, increasing the value.

    As for the route itself, it's a bit of an odd choice, as it's not one of the most iconic routes in the UK. The era represented is also odd, as most who remember that time are over 50, which is not the largest demographic in train simming. Modern era always sells best, so I'm suprised they didn't opt to model it as it is today. Not to mention track work is much simpler now than it was then, so it's less resource intensive to create.

    Also the route is actually called the Huddersfield Line, not the "Northern Trans-Pennine" as DTG call it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
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  6. Rob39

    Rob39 Active Member

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    What! This is huge. When was it announced. 185’s and 68’s?
     
  7. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    This would certainly be my worry. OTOH I suspect that DTG may have been working on this for quite a while and equally it's quite possible that a lot of this was farmed out to third parties. That said, I'm likely to wait until it's released and other braver souls have had a chance to discover how many new bugs it has before coughing up any dosh. I can certainly be certain this will be another route lacking atmospere. :(
     
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  8. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Sadly not. They’ve set it in the BR blue era so nothing modern :-(
     
  9. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Member

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    It's set in 1983, so no, you won't be getting 185's and 68's
     
  10. Rob39

    Rob39 Active Member

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    Thats even better
     
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  11. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Member

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    Sure is, you can't beat the BR Blue era (though others will disagree, of course :D)
     
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  12. Denrapid93

    Denrapid93 New Member

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    While I am very interested to see this route for train sim world I am also like others afraid of the quality of the end product after the glassdoor review and the rushed release of LIRR.

    The fact they have chosen 1983 where they reused The trains for WSR DLC 47 and mk1 cars without making any new freightcars for the era shows like an decision made to get the dlc out as quickly as possible for christmas.

    Still looking forward to it though and hoping the end quality will be good enough.
     
  13. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    You all realize that there are multiple teams working on routes at the same time, right? Shortly after RSN's release, it was stated that the next 3 routes were already being worked on. Leeds Manchester is presumably the second of those 3 routes, which means that this route has been in production for the last 3-4 months at least, not just 20 days.
     
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  14. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    Yes that is correct. Multiple teams producing the same standard of work as opposed to multiple teams producing dlc that varies wildly in quality.... hmmm you sure you want to go there?
     
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  15. Rob39

    Rob39 Active Member

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    The editor will see to that, hopefully. Might be able to move the Gwe container wagons to tpe. Unless they do infact have some railfreight dlc. The passenger services should suit as they were mainly 4/5 coach rakes werent they?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
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  16. Rob39

    Rob39 Active Member

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    3 dlc’s were talked about back in September. DTG would have a calendar schedule for releases. LIRR wouldnt have had any influence, I dont think. Matt P a senior producer? Is on holiday until the New Year I think he said on one of his streams. So I would imagine theyve been at this dlc for months.
    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  17. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Weird time for the Senior Producer to go on holiday, given the Beta for the Editor is supposed to be launching before Christmas, you'd think he'd want to be around for that. Or perhaps they knew all along that there would be no Editor Beta this year.
     
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  18. Rob39

    Rob39 Active Member

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    Or hes been working incredibly hard. That work is pretty much finished and the product just needs publishing. Thats what Id like to believe. From watching his streams. You can see, when he steams tsw. Hes as picky as we are. Also answers questions. Thats why I dont get the dtg communication argument. Matt peddlesden twitch.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  19. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Digital Draftsman got to agree on the Christmas focus. Interested in your comment on the over 50s not being a large demographic in train simming. I would have guessed differently and might have hazarded a guess that they might have deeper pockets than some other demographic groups. Perhaps there’s a thought that this and other releases are intended each to bring different demographics to the platform? This I would think would tempt some of the BR Blue crowd to try TSW and if they don’t might be a big warning signal to DTG about their hopes to migrate the older TS1 base across.

    On three routes being in development at the same time I’d have thought that one would have been in planning, one in coding and one in testing. That’s what you’d do if you wanted a smooth delivery schedule. However the proximity to LIRR suggests that’s not true although there’s every possibility that one or both might have had some delays with the resulting bunching we see. One obvious problem in having two releases so close to each other is that some may, because of available hobby money, choose one rather than the other.

    So with two releases in quick succession and with more news promised on the editor potentially it’s going to be a busy end of the year for DTG. If nothing else - like any company - support resources to fix things if they don’t go to plan over the holiday season will be limited. As some say DTG is a small company but they certainly look like they roll the dice from time to time.

    On the choice of route again I think we’re seeing decisions made on route length rather than obvious railways interest. Leeds-Manchester is what 40 odd miles as the crow flies so it’s a pretty good fit with what we’ve seen before. Anyone waiting for the ECML is probably going to be waiting a while...
     
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  20. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    It's not pretty much finished, it's about to go into Beta testing. It's at the phase where the person managing it shouldn't be in a position to go on holiday. The Editor is critical to the future of TSW, in the past where I've been managing projects with a lot less riding on them, there's no way any of the companies I've worked for would have let me go on holiday for a few weeks just as a critical testing phase was about to begin. So I think we can safely assume that the Editor won't be with us this year as DTG claimed.

    It's not that it isn't a large demographic, but it's just not the largest. The largest in terms of money spent is the 35-50 age bracket and the largest in terms of players is the 18-35 bracket. That said, the age brackets used to define a demographic are somewhat arbitrary.

    Modern stuff is most popular, I guess because it's the trains people see on their daily commute and those who aspire to become train drivers will be aspiring to drive whatever the latest train type is. Doing a 1980s route does add variety to what they have on offer, so perhaps they are hoping it'll draw a different crowd, as you suggest.

    It's definitely not optimal to release three products at once. If you release three products at the same time that's three times the customer support load. They have also reduced to PC/Console release gap with LIRR, so if they do that with the Class 33 and the Huddersfield Line that'll futher increase in the customer support load.

    The route length is probably based on the return per mile for a route of that type/era/traffic. They make more money selling two 40mile routes than they do selling one 80mile route.
     
  21. Shaun123

    Shaun123 New Member

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    Regarding freight on this route, I’d be stunned if Healey Mills TMD/yard wasn’t included for freight purposes.
     
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  22. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    Im a crusty. I have deep pockets, with moths that fly out whenever i open them. Would love to have an in depth immersive train sim that i can destress with. The window is there but so far no takers.. and i love the 60- 80s railway stuff as it harkens back to a simpler time. At least it seemes simpler through my rose tinted specs.. but for those very reasons it has to be immersive. At the moment that hasnt clicked.
     
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  23. AlexNL

    AlexNL Active Member

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    Matt said on Discord that at the end he had been putting in 20 hour days for LIRR. I can't blame him for taking a month off to recharge the battery. :)
     
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  24. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I was being facetious as it's obvious he doesn't need to be around because there will be no Editor Beta this year.
     
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  25. davejc64

    davejc64 Active Member

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    Well I am more likely to buy this route than the last one, I suspect the editor has been put on hold so they can proritise the paid for DLC of course they won't admit that.
     
  26. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    Despite the downvotes how prophetic you turned out to be Digital Draftsman. It seems downvotes don't equal facts ;)
     
  27. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    What can I say, I call it as I see it!
     
  28. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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  29. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ARuscoe I’d read that a little differently

    ‘so while we are still aiming to get it to our internal beta group and to the third-party developers we’re working with this side of Christmas, the public open beta will now be in the New Year’

    They are aiming to get a beta to their own test group and some third party developers before Christmas. We should remember that it’s likely that there won’t be a lot of work over the festive break so unless they get it to those groups soon they won’t have a lot of time testing something they admit is ‘challenging’. What comes in the New Year (a timeframe which is pretty vague) is a public open beta, not the final release of the editor.

    What we’d both be guessing in is how good that Public Beta will be. When they test internally they’ve got a known hardware/software framework, when you go Public you add in a lot of other combinations.

    So say,

    - best case for internal and third party testers 6 weeks (allowing for some slippage over the holiday season)

    - release and rollout (presumably via Steam) of Public Beta, say February - minimum 4-6 weeks beta

    - if it’s a clean beta without too many issues production Beta in April timeframe?

    To me that’s aggressive and relies on the beta both internally and public ally not running into major issues. Others may disagree.

    One issue with working with the Beta is that if changes have to be made for the final version any work you’ve done may not be forward compatible. Getting the public beta isn’t ‘getting’ the editor. It’s getting a test version, good for playing around with but you should be wary of starting any major development on it.
     
  30. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I'd read it as "don't expect it soon"... and leave it at that

    Others seem to be more vociferous in their demands
     
  31. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    ...and is infinitely more important that it works than when it’s released, else we’ll be bitching and moaning that it was rushed & released too soon.
     
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  32. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    Yeees, DTG have a proven track record in this context..
     
  33. Rob39

    Rob39 Active Member

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    Have u guys seen that its out on PC December 13th!
     
  34. PlatChap

    PlatChap Active Member

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    Yeah, I got that email today to pre-order it. Surprised to see 2 DLC's released so quickly back to back but it fiscally makes sense with the holiday season upon us. I do share worry with other users here that DTG's resources could of been split and that these routes may not have gotten the attention that they deserve. I fully expect a lot of the same issues to present themselves in this latest route but only time will tell for sure. The screens they released look great but only so much can be gathered from what DTG chooses to share with us versus what isn't. Maybe there will be a dev stream for this route where we can see more but iirc, there wasn't one for LIRR.
     
  35. solon

    solon Member

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    3 DLC and no steam locomotive for WSR snifff
     
  36. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I assume it’s 3 ‘routes’. Hopefully we’ll see steam soon!
     
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  37. davejc64

    davejc64 Active Member

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    I wish they had included some freight wagons, scenarios and services for this route then it would be a definite purchase for me at the moment it's only a maybe.
     
  38. Rob39

    Rob39 Active Member

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    Devs on here have stated that a freight dlc with loco is in the works. Also been reassured that on console we will be able to create our own scenarios with stock from other routes.
     
  39. davejc64

    davejc64 Active Member

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    So if we want freight we have to pay extra for it I suppose.
     
  40. Gordon7000

    Gordon7000 Active Member

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    I reckon so. It will come later as an add-on to the existing route.
     
  41. Rob39

    Rob39 Active Member

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    Yeah suppose so. With the reasoning behind it being. Once you have the rolling stock. Its yours to put anywhere you like, whether it be on GWe, WSR or NTP. Like building a model railway. I think once they officially, fully disclose the editing options for PC and console formats. Then we will know exactly what we’re paying for.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
  42. Nick_Brad

    Nick_Brad Member

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    Well, the class 33 is sitting in my wishlist awaiting a sale, until I can use it on multiple routes, £11.99 is just too steep for me. Any loco add on for the "TPE" route will face the same waiting period. I have pre-ordered the route itself today, but I really hope it's not as buggy as the LIRR has proven to be.
    I do love the TSW franchise as a whole and it has great potential, the devs just need to double check their work and avoid silly errors.....if what I have read elsewhere is true and the rush job is coming from pressure higher up, then hopefully someone can persuade upper management to read our concerns and see that this giant melting pot is about to explode, even if they don't reply.
     
  43. 47551

    47551 New Member

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    BR route in the 80s!?!?! This is hellfire news!
     
  44. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I won't be pre-ordering this DLC based on DTG's history of buggy and feature missing DLC. I'd rather spend an extra fiver if it turns out the DLC is worth £24.99 than spend £19.99 on what could be a buggy mess. Ultimately, if DTG produce a decent product they'll deservedly get my full £24.99, if they don't, I'll be spending that £24.99 supporting another developer who deserves it.

    When the community talks, DTG ignore it. When money talks, DTG listen. Vote with your wallets and support developers who deserve it. It's the only way DTG will raise their standards. If you keep buying buggy DLC, then buggy DLC is all you'll ever get.
     
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  45. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I too agree with Digital Draftsman

    I’m not trying to be negative but almost all DLC released by DTG for TSW has been a buggy mess, which even to this day still hasn’t been resolved. In fact in the first five minutes of game play, there are some bizarrely obvious bugs standing out, which I think how on earth did they get through QA?! (if there even is any)

    The pre-order discount used to sound attractive, but even with the discount it doesn’t compensate for the amount of bugs there are.

    It’s sad really because I almost expect new content to be buggy and not fixed for an eternity.
     
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  46. davejc64

    davejc64 Active Member

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    Well that's fair enough, I will just hold off buying further DLC until a editor materialises so that I can then edit locos, coaches and wagons etc into other routes and also see what 3rd party developers can offer.
     
  47. giogurto_grande

    giogurto_grande Member

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    Well said, gentlemen. I would suggest to anyone considering to preorder to hold off because:
    - this DLC might have been rushed for release before christmas;
    - you can't trust those announcement articles anymore as people writing them don't seem to know exactly what the addon will actually feature. We've seen that happening with LIRR announcements and inconsistencies have already been pointed out in the recent one;
    - no pre-release live stream.

    I'll wait. As Digital Draftsman said, the discount isn't worth the risk of disappointment.
     
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  48. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Member

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    Alternatively you could do what I'm doing and have it on pre-order and if it is a letdown then you can claim your refund (providing it's within a certain time and you haven't played it for so long, can't remember the limits off hand)
     
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  49. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    2hrs for Steam.
     
  50. Shaun123

    Shaun123 New Member

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    Sad to see some disappointment before anyone has even played the DLC.

    For me the era of the route doesn’t suit, but the route itself is one of my favourites! If I’m honest if it was just Manchester Victoria-Huddersfield, I’d have bought it! Can’t wait until the 13th! Would rather drive a DMU (142!!) through Standedge!

    Hopefully quite a fair bit of service scope?

    Man Vic-Stalybridge/Huddersfield stoppers, Leeds-Huddersfield stoppers.

    And obviously the expresses Vic-Leeds.

    As regards freight if they are doing a freight pack, Healey Mills must be included surely?!
     
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