1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Pzb/lzb Help And Or Bugs

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Sgtpanda, Aug 25, 2020.

  1. Sgtpanda

    Sgtpanda New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    2
    Can anyone explain why I got an emergency brake application in the clip below? I even acknowledged the 120kph speed reduction sign (which I shouldn't need to) and the system didn't react. After reloading a save and experimenting I found that if you are braking while passing through the signal you don't get an emergency brake but I don't understand what PZB or LZB rule would cause this.
    VIDEO: https://streamable.com/w53gzk

    Also when running under LZB, I can increase my AFB setting above the LZB target and the train will accelerate past the target, I thought my speed would be limited the LZB target as in this case it is lower.
    Thanks.

    Edit: Ignore the last part that I have stricken out, was a misunderstanding.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
  2. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    935
    Likes Received:
    1,627
    There are magnets that check to make sure you are following the brake curve. You were maintaining speed/accelerating at 140km/h when you had a 20km/h speed reduction in a third of a kilometer. You were above the brake curve and the system penalised you for not slowing down before the 120km/h sign.
     
  3. Sgtpanda

    Sgtpanda New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    2
    Above the brake curve for what though? I'm aware that when PZB activates you need to brake to 85kph within a set time frame but PZB did not activate, is there some speed limit enforcement system/aspect that I'm not aware of?
     
  4. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2016
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    1,114
    Something was not working properly with your game. The bottom right HUD is not showing the 85 in a circle to indicate that PZB is active, but the panel on the train cab was clearly showing it was active. There is a conflict between the two, so the game is in an inconsistent state.

    I would stay away from the "save" function in this game. I do not use it because I know there have been cases in the past where the game does not restore all the variables properly when you load. Sometimes just pressing the "save" button left the game in an incorrect state.

    I think it was just a TSW2 error. The advanced signal for 120 Km/h had no magnet, and also you don't need to acknowledge signals above 100Km/h as a rule with PZB. He was not under a 1000Hz restriction before he reached the light signal, so there was no brake curve to follow. It looks to me the light signal was showing green, while the game thought internally that it had something else that needed to be acknowledged and considered the 1000Hz magnet was active.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
  5. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2016
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    1,114
    The only permanent limit is that you can't exceed 160 Km/h (in PZB mode O). Everything else is related to an active magnet.
     
  6. Sgtpanda

    Sgtpanda New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    2
    You are correct about the HUD issue, and this was due to me loading a save game however I only loaded that save game because I got an emergency brake application at that signal the first time I passed it, so it can't be related to save game inconsistencies. Also in one of my tests I even acknowledged the signal and it didn't seem to help, still got E brake at the exact same spot.

    If there's still PZB issues in TSW2 then that's really disappointing, maybe they'll get around to fixing it but I feel like this is the second time I've hit a bugged PZB magnet. It just really ruins the fun and I don't want to wait weeks for it to maybe get fixed so I guess I'm just turning PZB off and I'm going to drive pretending it's on.
     
  7. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    935
    Likes Received:
    1,627
    You're right, there was no magnet for the 120 km/h sign which makes sense. However when I recreated his problem here (in the scenario ICE to Meet You), I found that the train would go into emergency if you passed the signal magnets over ~135 km/h. It could be a bug, but it might also be station/yard protection specific to that area? I am not certain, but I know that there do exist magnets in real life that check to make sure you are following brake curves correctly.

    Not sure. ProfCreeptonius?
     
  8. Sgtpanda

    Sgtpanda New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    2
    I also had the same issue in "ICE and Rain", coincidentally right after a 120kph warning sign, so to me it sounds like there's some sort of issue with 120kph signs? Either that or coincidence? Someone on steam was also complaining about E brakes after 120kph signs.
    https://steamcommunity.com/app/1282590/discussions/0/4085282327473257156/
     
  9. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    1,023
    If you are driving in a PZB "section" (where LZB its not active: U = Active, B = Ready/inactive) as you passing a reduction speed signal (yellow triangle on your right side with the 12) in PZB 85 mode you got about 23 seconds to reduce your speed under 12 = under 120km/h (usually about 5km/h under the max speed limit, cause at 120.1km/h you are already over the limit) or S safety system brake will stop your train.

    When LZB is active (U instead B) you haven't to follow what I wrote above, cause LZB active bypass the PZB reduction speed signals. LZB follow different rules.

    edit: updated
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
  10. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    935
    Likes Received:
    1,627
    Rewatch the video. There are two key points:
    1. There is no magnet at the reduction warning sign so the system does not know that there is a speed restriction coming up.
    2. The emergency brake comes on about 18 seconds after passing the 120km/h warning sign, not 23.
    Something is off here but I am still not sure if it a bug or an obscure rule.
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  11. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2016
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    1,114
    I just played "ICE and Rain" and nothing strange happened. Payed extra attention to those signals, since I had just read your previous post and seen your video. Everything went as expected in my run. Guess it must be one of those nasty bugs that only happen sometimes to some people with some hardware.
     
  12. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2016
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    1,114
    That is not correct. First, you will not find a 1000Hz magnet next to a 100+ Km/h signal (unless there are other signals), but if for any reason there was a 1000Hz magnet active at the signal, it will force you to less than 85 Km/h in 23 seconds. There is no PZB magnet that forces you to go under 120 Km/h.
     
  13. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2016
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    1,114
    Remember, you do not need to load a game to leave the game in a inconsistent state. Just saving (pressing the "save" button) can do it. I know it sounds stupid, but it happened to me a couple times and that's when I stopped saving games. I couldn't believe it at first ... it makes no sense, but it happens.
     
  14. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    1,023
    1. At 1.3km from Stolberg Hbf (minute 0.01 on video) there is a \12/ 120km/h reduction speed signal: the train in the video passed at 130km/h (thats correct cause max permitted speed here is 140km/h). Note: the yellow triangle with the 12 inside it is not a cosmetic, he tell you to reduce the speed to 120km/h (I dont remind the exactly distance, if 700meters forward or/and at next main signal, but as you met this signal you have a limited time or distance to reduce your speed under the number show in the triangle).

    2. At 970meters (minute 0.11 on video) you can see a 1st magnet, train passed at 135km/h: he not only has not begin to reduce the speed but he has increased the speed (thats not correct, also if for the system, technically, you can still proceed cause the limit here is still 140km/h).

    3. at 730meters (minute 0.18 on video) you can see a 2nd magnet just under the main signal, train instead to reduce the speed next to 120km/h he still increase the speed next to the 140km/h (thats the fail, here there is no more time to reduce the speed at 120km/h like previously indicated, so, as train passed the main signal the system will activate the emergency brake and the S will lights up on your display).

    4. yes, I made confusion about the "23 seconds", this rule work when we got the 1000hz magnet active (in mode 85, also because with 1000hz active magnet, first at all, you always have to reduce the speed under the 85km/h, thats why its called "mode 85")... But this not change what I said above (except for the 23secs of time). Whithin the next block (or/and 700meters) you have to reduce the speed from 140km/h to 120km/h otherwise S will stop your train. Is that a bug? No!
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  15. kalteVollmilch

    kalteVollmilch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    432
    EDIT:
    This answer is not completely true, yet not completely wrong. See animatikers answer below
    ==================================================================
    Original post:
    I'd like to generalize 7orenz answer a bit:
    PZB will make sure that you slow down appropriately, even if the upcoming speed reduction is above 100kph.
    To do this, there are pairs of 3 magnets installed: 2 magnets with a set disctance. Those measure the time you take to get from the first magnet to the second. If the time you took is under a set threshhold (the threshhold is dependent on the current and upcoming speedlimit), then you are too fast, and the third magnet will be active with 2000Hz, giving you the ever so beloved Zwangsbremsung.
    Only if you are slowing down appropriately, the third magnet will not be active and you can continue.
    In your video you can clearly see the three magnets I'm talking about.

    So to summarize: You may not have to acknowledge every upcoming speed reduction, but PZB will still bite you in the butt if it gets the chance
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
    • Helpful Helpful x 3
    • Like Like x 2
  16. Sintbert

    Sintbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    349
    Likes Received:
    332
    This has nothing to do with the PZB brake curve. There are simply speed check magnets ahead of the 120 limit. Those sets of 2 magnets right where the emergency apply and the the two before it. Those work as follows:

    The first set starts a timer, after which the second set gets deactivated. That timer is set to expire before you reach the second set if you are below about 130 for the following 120 limit. Since you at that point still drive with close to 140 you get the emergency brakes.
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  17. animatiker

    animatiker Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2020
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    31
    These set of 3 magnets are called GPA or "Geschwindigkeitsprüfabschnitt" (speed check section) and are mostly installed where the speed limit decreases 20 kph or more, where more than 100 kph is allowed.
    What kalteVollmlch explained was generally right, although the 3 magnets work a bit different in reality. Driving over the first one will set the second 2000 Hz magnet active for a set time. If you are running with accurate speed or below, the second magnet will be inactive at the time you reach it - thus you won't get a Zwangsbremsung. If you are too fast, it will still be active and you will be stopped. The third magnet will reset the GPA for the next train.
    Before a upcoming speed limit of 120, the GPA will check you on 135 kph (+/- 5 kph) at around 355 meters before the new speed limit applies.
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 6
    • Like Like x 2
  18. ProfCreeptonius

    ProfCreeptonius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    649
    Refer to https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/an-introduction-to-gpa-gü-and-rsn-bug.12395/.

    The 2000Hz Zwangsbremsung at >135 is correct. Those are not the signal magnets, those are GÜ Speed magnets. Slow down early to avoid a Zwangsbremsung

    Hope this helps,
    Cheers,
    Prof
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 5
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2016
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    1,114
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Sgtpanda

    Sgtpanda New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    2
    Thank you, everybody, for figuring this out! Like others have said though, it really is a shame we have to figure this out by guesswork and the help of others on the forums rather than via the manual!
     
  21. Franck69

    Franck69 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2020
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    35
    But I do not understand, and I would like those who have carried out the test can give their opinion.
    With the talent on the KÖLN Hbf to Aachen Hbf route, at a certain point you travel at over 160 km / h, about 2km from a station that I have to stop, the flashing green appears with the indication to drop speed to 80 km / h. As soon as I see the signal I start to slow down and as soon as I pass the signal, I press the PZB recognition and the 1000 magnet turns on, I bring the brake to almost 80% because over the axles slip, then in the rain they slip first, and in any case I can't to brake sufficiently not to trigger automatic braking. Do you think there is something wrong? In my opinion there must have been a flashing green first, in order to alert the driver that he must prepare to slow down.
    Ah I state that I drive without any help, like reality.
    Has it happened to any of you?
     
  22. Sintbert

    Sintbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    349
    Likes Received:
    332
    This is a problem with the distance you are able to see the signal.

    There are places where you can not see the flashing green with 80 from far, those have a flashing green some hundreds meters bevor it. No problem to brake here.
    But then there are places where the flashing green with 80 is visible from far away, so you should have no problem to be below 85 before the emergency comes on. Now here is the problem with TSW that you cannot see that signal till you are about 400m away. In reality you can see it from maybe 1,5-2km it good conditions.
    Then there is also the argument of route knowledge. You know you gonna stop and get a reduction for the switches, so no problem to brake even bevor you see the signal.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2016
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    1,114
    Yes, it happened to me, but I do not consider that a bug. I replayed the service and reduced my speed to 140 Km/h around 2 Km before the speed reduction signal. When the track is wet we have to do like real drivers do, which is not going at max line speed all the time.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  24. ProfCreeptonius

    ProfCreeptonius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    649
    Hi all,

    First, if wheel slip is preventing you from braking sufficiently fast, attempt sanding. Second, in cases where effective brake performance is severely reduced, consider switching to middle PZB mode. Unfortunately that's impossible on some of the trains. In those cases start braking early or do not drive at the maximal 160kph. The brake curve is indeed very strict and steep.

    Also, differentiate the Zs3 and Zs3v signals, for signal speed limits and signal speed limit warnings. You need to acknowledge Zs3v's, those have the yellow number - refer to my GPA/GÜ guide. Zs3's are ONLY valid for the junction block immediately behind the signal. Line speed applies after you passed said tracks.

    Cheers,
    Prof.
     
  25. Franck69

    Franck69 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2020
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    35
    Grazie a tutti per le vostre risposte e preziosi suggerimenti. In effetti queste sono le cose che ho pensato anch'io, ma poi mi sono chiesto, ma se un macchinista nella vita reale intendo dire, per assurdità, può essere leggermente distratto e quindi arrivare vicino al segnale ad alta velocità, esso mi sembra strano che non abbia abbastanza tempo per frenare in sicurezza senza scuotere i passeggeri con brusche frenate. Cioè, nelle ferrovie italiane, ad esempio, il sistema di segnalamento non consente una cosa del genere, la curva di frenata è sempre dolce, quasi mai a blocco, se non in casi del tutto eccezionali.
     
  26. Glazier

    Glazier Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2020
    Messages:
    50
    Likes Received:
    44
    Oh, I remember this, I was laughing hard on the PZB trying to emergency break my train with the locked wheels. I overshot the station by 300m when tried to slam on the brakes at the 80km in the rain :D
     
    • Like Like x 1
  27. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2019
    Messages:
    804
    Likes Received:
    765
    Yeah, hit me in the same spot, too hahaha.

    But after driving the route 3 or 4 times I learned enough. 4 km before the station I stop accelerating and roll, 3km before station I apply brakes at 5-10% (double in rain), 2 - 1,5 km before station +5% brake power, 400m before stop 80% (max if rain) brake and landing perfectly.
    I'm not even late in schedule.
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 2
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page