Riesa-dresden: Tips On Driving Freight Trains Realistically.

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by cwf.green, Aug 27, 2021.

  1. Betjoin

    Betjoin Well-Known Member

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    It is simple and you may not believe me but: The Brake-Mode is specified by the timetable. Thats why setting the Brakemode in TSW is a little bit hard. This is how it is regulated in real life:

    Lets say we have a 2000t Train. The Timetable specifies P.
    We then have to check for a certain set of criteria:
    - Net-Weight of Car-Train. In our Case the Train weighs 2000t. that means its far heavier that 1200t so we need to set the loco and the first five cars to G.
    - Are all Cars loaded or weigh more than 32t? if not the Train needs to run completely in G
    1601t to 2500t: Each Vehicle must weigh at least 32t.
    2501t to 4000t: Each Vehicle must weigh at least 40t.
    Is the Train equipped with UIC-AK Coupling? If yes, the train can run completely in P, regardless of the weight.


    We then need to Calculate the BrH:
    First of all, we need to deduct 25% of the Brake-Weight at every Vehicle that was set to G.

    We then need to Check our Lenght of the Car-Train: In the case of freight trains for which braking position P is required, at every
    Vehicle in braking mode P certain values of the brake-weight are deducted if the train exceeds certain lengths:
    - deduct 5% if your train measures 501m to 600m
    - deduct 10% if your train measures 601m to 700m
    - deduct 19% if your Train measures 701m to 815m

    Furthermore, for every vehicle in braking position G (in addition to the 25% already deducted) a further 5% must be deducted from the braked weight if the train exceeds a length of 701m

    If all those things are considered, you can determine the PZB mode with the resulting BrH.
    It may sound strange, but it is possible, for example, to run a train in braking mode P even though it has less than or close to 60 Brh.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2021
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  2. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    It‘s not that I don‘t believe you, it‘s just that I‘m entirely reliant on other peoples‘ knowledge in this regard.

    Your descriptions are very interesting. Would you by chance have any official documentation on it which you can share? I always try to read up on it myself, if possible.

    Also, did I get this right: If I have multi-car freight cars, I‘d use the table provided at the very beginning of this thread. If my train is made up of conventional cars, I‘d basically use the same table to decide whether I‘m running P/P, G/P, or LL. If I arrive at LL, I‘d check whether G/G is required based on wagon weights. Is that about right?
     
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  3. Betjoin

    Betjoin Well-Known Member

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    Sounds about right, but what is LL? LL is no Brake-mode as far as i am aware of...
     
  4. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    These selectors only became functional with the Dresden versions; previously they were merely cosmetic.
     
  5. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    LL = Lange Lok; loco in G and first 5 cars in G, all other cars in P
     
  6. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    If the table in the OP is correct, it should not be possible to run a train completely in P, if the weight exceeds 1,600 tons.
    At least the locomotive and the first 5 cars need to be set to G ("long/large loco"), regardless of couplers and the weight of single cars.
    Moreover, if the table is correct, all cars that
    - are at least the sixth car in the train,
    - weigh at least 32 tons (or 40 tons, if the train exceeds 2,500 tons)
    AND
    - are equipped with UIC-AK couplers
    can be set to P (if the Fahrplan is set out in P/R), while all other cars need to be set to G.
    So even if there are cars in the train that do not meet the forementioned criteria, other cars that meet them can run in P.
    Again, this is what the table says, not my own knowledge.

    It would be very interesting to see the original text of Richtlinie 915.0101Z01. And maybe some statement of cwf.green and OpenMinded.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2021
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  7. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Yes, by coincidence I got hold of a copy over the weekend. I checked briefly and there is one topic regarding the UIC coupling I am not sure about. I am checking this at the moment (other word for, I ask someone who knows better then me) however, am not at home till probably next week, hence it will take a while until I can check again and post some text of it. But the „and“ gate may be an „or“ gate…
     
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  8. Betjoin

    Betjoin Well-Known Member

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    Oh ok. thats what i meant with G/P
     
  9. Betjoin

    Betjoin Well-Known Member

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    Yes but you don´t need AK-Couplers. If your train is equipped with AK then you can run completely in P and dont need to set anything in G, regardles of weight. But since there are only a couple pair of trains in Germany and there is no vehicle with AK in TSW, you can actually ignore this.
     
  10. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Just to clear this up (not just for you - for anyone else reading this thread), when we used G/P in this thread, we refer to loco in G and all cars in P.
    That is what OpenMinded may have also found out in Richtlinie 915.0101Z01. Hopefully, we'll have some official documentation soon to make sure (no pressure though OpenMinded - please don't stress yourself for us).
     
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  11. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    If that is the case, it will have a significance in the game:
    Some 1,600+ tons trains composed of loaded cars (in the Dresden DLC) should be allowed to run in LL instead of G/G then.
     
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  12. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Sorry it took a bit longer, but here I am with a "training purpose only" copy of the RIL915 (it still is the same thing, though). Now, apparently this is available online, somewhere, however, I was not able to locate it, hence, I will only show screenshots of passages on the forum and will not publish the whole thing. If someone wants the whole thing, please PM me.

    Betjoin is correct with his statement, with some exceptions. If you read the passage, I do understand that it can be a bit misleading. The guy who originally provided the table to me created it for his own training purposes. As he was new to the subject I need to give him some credit for this mistake.

    Everything else in the original table stays the same, only the "and" should have been an "or". However, there is an addition in the last paragraph: it is not allowed with waggons which are permanently coupled, adding some more complexity to the subject and is definitely relevant for TSW2, as most heavy trains are sggmrss. As I only have a PDF of the original table, Ill try to get hold of the xls file and edit it. Bare with me on this one.

    upload_2021-11-9_10-51-37.png

    Of course, LL still is required! This will not change. It is a bit misleading, as we are only referencing to the timetable brake mode. The setup on the train always requires you to run LL.
     
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  13. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Fantastic work! Thank you so much :)
     
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  14. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    I was quicker this time around:) Attached is the updated table. I even managed to translate it into english, hopefully making it more accessible for a wider audience.

    cwf.green could you change the table in your original post, please?!

    EDIT: reading through the RIL, there are many things, such as regulations for permanently coupled cars etc, which could find its way into this table. I will update it over time and post it here from time to time.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
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  15. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    Great! I will update my sheet accordingly ASAP.
     
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  16. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Looks like i did a good thing to put on hold my fahrplans. I will update these as well
     
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  17. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    So.. if I get this right, then I can set cars to P in consists the weigh more than 1,600 tons only if

    1) the Fahrplan is set out in P/R
    2) the car is at least the sixth car in the consist
    AND
    3) EITHER
    ALL cars in the consist are fitted with UIC-AK couplers
    OR
    a) ALL cars in the consist weigh at least 32 tons (or 40 tons, if the consist weighs more than 2,500 tons)
    AND
    b) there is NO unit in the consist that qualifies as a "Gelenkwagen" or "kurzgekoppelter Wagen mit Einzelradsätzen"
    So one single unit in the consist that doesn't meet the weight requirements or qualifies as a "Gelenkwagen" or "kurzgekoppelter Wagen mit Einzelradsätzen" (or doesn't have UIC-AK couplers) ruins it for the whole consist and ALL cars need to run in G, right?

    Btw, are you sure that the Sgmrss qualifiy as "kurzgekoppelte Wagen mit Einzelradsätzen"? I would have thought that (unlike the Laaers 560) both cars in the Sgmrss units have bogies and thus DO NOT run on single axles (Einzelradsätzen). Isn't that quite the same thing as what you posted the other day?
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
  18. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    They count as Gelenkwagen, which are mentioned alongside kurzgekoppelte Wagen mit Einzelradsätzen. I don‘t see OpenMinded claiming they‘re kurzgekoppelte Wagen mit Einzelradsätzen anywhere.
     
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  19. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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  20. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    Ah, my bad, sorry. Do you guys know where the definition of a Gelenkwagen is set out?
     
  21. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    It is simply the term for a permanently coupled vehicle, which is hinged in the middle (articulated car).
     
  22. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    I see. And what are kurzgekuppelte Wagen mit Einzelradsätzen that are not already Gelenkwagen?
     
  23. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    A Gelenkwagen is actually linked by a hinge and shares a bogie in the middle (not sure that this is always the case).

    A kurzgekuppelter Wagen is actually made up of two seperate vehicles, linked not by a hinge but by a special coupling.
     
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  24. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    Aye.. cool. So the Laaers 560 are Gelenkwagen as well, even if they do not share a bogie?
    upload_2021-11-9_21-34-40.png
    Are there kurzgekuppelte Wägen in the game?
     
  25. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    There are car transport Waggons that classify as Gelenkwagen, but they then share at least an axle in the middle. The Laaers 560 are kurzgekuppelt. As the have single axles, they do classify into the group described by the RIL915, though.
     
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  26. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, thank you very much, I will work this in my sheet.
     
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  27. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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  28. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    You're looking at DB BR189 or 151 with the Falls Falrrs Iron Ore Wagons for that to work and coal the Falnqqs 130 taken from dybas.de. Perhaps there might be a scenario that involves them on Riesa-Dresden where you drop Iron Ore to a steel mill
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2022
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  29. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    Updated my sheet to version 1.33.
    Apart from having undergone a bit of finetuning, the sheet now has an "Apply Preset" function (using a VBA macro), that automatically clears the sheet or automatically pulls the specifications for all the freight trains in the Dresden Nahverkehr DLC by starting time. Since the sheet hides unused rows automatically, there is only one version. With macros disabled, the sheet should work (without the automated function) as usual.
    Sheet can be downloaded from my discord server.
     
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  30. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    Btw, in the light of OpenMinded 's latest discoveries, there is imho no train in the Dresden DLC left that needs to be run in full G/G. Even the trains beyond 1,600 tons fulfill the additional requirements (concerning car weight and multi-car-units) to be run in LL.
    Since the game sets the brakes on all cars on those trains to "G", you are in for a lot of lever-switching.
     
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  31. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Hey, I just made the thread that was promised before, albeit in a slightly compromised way. I haven't really been keeping up with this thread so I just noticed that there might be some inaccuracies. Feel free to correct that and I'll try to edit the OP, the main goal was just to at least provide a spreadsheet of which formation is used in what service etc.

    LINK
     
  32. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Apart from trains with only 65brh or lower. According to cwf.green summary there is such a train set (loaded Habbiins).
     
  33. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to be a major pain in the neck, but could you remind me where that came from - was this explained in a different post in this thread? Say my train ticks all the boxes to be run in LL according to the table - does this train then need to be run in G/G if BrH are at or below 65, is that correct?
     
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  34. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, my bad! I was absolutely not clear with what I have written and what I was referring to. In fact, you are right to be confused, it has nothing to do with the brake setting, but only with the PZB mode. Mode needs to be set to U with 65 or less brh. I was somehow thinking a step ahead when I made that post and was not realising that I wrote about brake mode…
     
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  35. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    No worries! I‘m just glad to know that there‘s nothing I‘ve missed. It‘s terribly easy to get a bit mixed up with all the terms we‘re throwing around here :)
     
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  36. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Yep it's a bit complicated lol.

    Still, sorry for the off topic, I wonder to what degree is all of this modeled in ZuSi
     
  37. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Obviously it’s going much further then TSW, however, if you read through their forums there are quite a lot of limitations as well.

    What I really value about TSW is that I now have the chance to go out and change the settings, which is not possible on Zusi. I can, myself, decide what setting the brakes are in and if I run a G timetable, rather then a P timetable.
     
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  38. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    That's what I thought, and considering the scope of TSW the level of detail and realism we have is already great
     
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  39. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    Hear, hear! I strongly hope this will be a standard for future releases.
    We still have to get the first loco that has a working GPR brake selector AND a working roadrunner system (at least if there is no hidden roadrunner in the BR 185.5 or the BR 143 that I haven't found yet).
     
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  40. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Really hope so, too. The added realism with the brake modes and improved physics elevated my enjoyment of German freight to completely new levels :D
     
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  41. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Time again to post something new. tygerways#2596 and myself have taken his BrH and Speed calculation tool a step further. It has already provided all the needed information's, nevertheless, I wanted to know at what stretch of the route I would be allowed to drive how fast with the current setup of the train I am in. In real life this information would be provided to the driver through the timetable. Most trains would be equipped with an EBuLa, nowadays, however, we are not quite there, yet, to establish a close to reality solution with Excel.

    For now, we have taken the next closest thing to the EBuLa and that is the "Buchfahrplan". Basically the manual EBuLa, which is still used today, if technology fails. The nice thing about the Buchfahrplan is that it can be build quite easily with Excel. This means, in order to use this tool, you will need Excel. Also, in order to have a close to reality representation of the Buchfahrplan, you should check that you have the following Font installed :"Bahnschrift Light Condensed". It looks like it is usually provided with all Win10 and Win11 installs.

    The way the new tool works is quite simple, if you have used tygerways#2596 tool before. On the first sheet (sheet1) you will still find the old calculation sheet, where you can enter all the details of your train. The results for the BrH and max speeds is then used to calculate a realistic Buchfahrplan over the next four sheets.

    Why four sheets: Each sheet represents a different routing. First sheet represents Dresden to Riesa via Coswig, the second sheet Dresen to Riesa via avoiding line and the next two sheets visa versa.

    The Buchfahrplan will then look something like this:
    Buchfahrplan.jpg

    You can see that it takes the calculated max speed into account. Black cells with white text are indicating a non displayed speed restriction coming from the slope of the track in this area and the associated calculations from the Bremstafeln, done by the sheet1 calculations. The topography of the route is taken into account.

    It also calculates your timetable. In the first line of the Buchfahrplan column "5" you can manually enter your departure time and it will calculate your time at a certain point along the route. It does take acceleration and deceleration and the actual calculated speeds along the track into account. Acceleration and Deceleration are dependant on BrH and weight of the train.

    There are a couple of limitations to this, as there are:
    ==> The whole timetable theoretical would work for passenger trains also, as the speed profiles are all there up to 160kph. However, it is optimised for fright only. The times it would calculate would obviously be completely off, as a passenger train has different acceleration profiles.
    ==> The calculated times are obviously not taking into account any red signals or if you are being taken into a siding to have a faster train pass. You will end up very often with alot of delay, which, I guess, is not so unrealistic for a cargo train, after all.
    ==> The representation of the Buchfahrplan is close to the real one, however, contains much less informations then what you would find on the real thing. Nevertheless, it should have all the signals, BÜs, HPs and so on in there. It is certainly enough to orientate yourself and drive with HUD completely off!
    ==> I have not made a separate sheet for the trains going to / or coming from Röderau. You will simply have to use the going to / coming from Riesa timetables.
    ==> The cargo trains leaving and arriving into Dresden are actually run on a separate fright track from Dresden Mitte. The timetable actually refers to the long distance passenger tracks, right next to the fright tracks. The speed limit on the fright tracks is slightly lower, 60, instead of the in the timetable indicated 80. it is always indicated by signals, though.

    There are probably some other minor inconsistencies, which you will find, which I may not have mentioned. Feel free to report them, as we are intending to update this tool from time to time.

    Thanks again to tygerways#2596 for letting me use his tool and supporting me to get my head around excel;)

    He will upload the new tool to his discord soon and post a link on the forum.
     
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  42. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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  43. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Great job, I knew it could be automated. Fingers crossed something similar will happen for Chemnitz for the tilting speed limits. I am not doing that manually again, it's just clumsier, more time consuming and prone to mistakes.

    Can I ask you where did you get the information for the route? Did you create the route profile from the TSW route like I did (togheter with using anglidaddi's fahrplan to fill some gaps) or did you use other resources?

    Also for the passenger train timings, could it be possible to cross-check the timings using this site https://smtimetables.herokuapp.com/ ?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021
  44. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    I took the route profile from the DLC. You could also take the data coming from DBNetz, but it is in such an inconvenient format that it was easier to do a couple of test runs.

    Yes, the timetable for the DLC pax services is available, however, the main intention was to recreate a realistic cargo operation. I will probably not make this for pax operations on this route. With the Chemnitz route coming up, this may change, as the tilting proves quite interesting and is an opportunity for me to extend my own knowledge through a little project like this.

    I am happy to provide the basis of the Buchfahrplan to who ever wants to extend it, though…
     
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  45. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    What in the US/UK is called a Jacobs bogie.
     
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  46. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Very true. Invented by Wilhelm Jakobs, it’s actually called Jakobs Drehgestell in German as well.
     
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  47. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I've decided a while ago to abandon my project for freight timetables specifically because of the realisation of the possibility of making the process automatic (by referencing top speed vs gradient, and creating a route profile), instead to do my own version I used the most obvious, but in hindsight the worst method possible, which was doing all that work manually, I have a rough gradient map and then used the VOD of a stream of mine to determine the exact mileposts, and locations, which obviously introduced a lot of possibilities of human error, and coupled with my inexperience in this sort of things was not the best combination

    PASSENGERS
    InterCity
    RE15 - Groβenhaim Cottb - Dresden
    RE50 - Dresden - Riesa
    RB31 - Groβenhaim Cottb - Coswig
    S1 - Meißen-Triebischtal - Dresden
    S2 - Dresden Neustadt - Dresden

    These are my passenger ones which I posted a while ago on my Creation Center thread. I'll take a look at your fahrplans and see if there is some possible informations missing, but I don't think that's the case.
    The Meißen and Großenhain branches should be pretty accurate (maybe apart for a few BÜ placements being off by 0.1 and using the wrong Signal type), since I have double checked them as they were 100% original work.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
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  48. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    I believe we both have based our versions on the same timetable which was originally created for train simulator?! I know that there are some small errors (like you have pointed out), when I have spotted them, I have corrected them. My main intention was to be able to drive without HUD and be able to take realistic circumstances for cargo operations into account.
     
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  49. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    All right, I tried to comprehend this when first posted, and gave up. Today I gave it another try, and am still hopelessly confused.

    Would it be possible to do a version of this post for dummies who (let us assume) don't know jack-diddly about German brake systems or (especially) their terminology?
     
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  50. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    I like your question, even though I would probably have directed you to the very first post of this thread, if you would have asked me;)

    But I understand that it may be confusing if you are not into the subject. However, Is it possible to specify your request? Which part of this post is unclear, I will try to explain in my own words and hope to make it more accessible.
     
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