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Route Mergers (talking About The Recent Roadmap Stream And Matt's Comments About It)

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by jolojonasgames, May 5, 2021.

?
  1. Yes (and I wouldn't mind paying a small amount of money for them)

    118 vote(s)
    47.4%
  2. Yes (and I wouldn't mind paying for them if they came with a loco add-on too)

    64 vote(s)
    25.7%
  3. Yes (but I wouldn't want to pay for them)

    25 vote(s)
    10.0%
  4. Yes (at any cost)

    29 vote(s)
    11.6%
  5. No

    13 vote(s)
    5.2%
  1. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Hi all, as some of you will already know, Matt went into the current issues with route merging on the most recent roadmap stream. He mentioned that getting route mergers to people ('how do we make the client side know that when a player owns two routes they should merge, while keeping the routes playable indepentently for players that don't own both') is a major obstacle, as well as some other technical issues. He mentioned that when developing routes, they kept in mind possible future mergers, however, no work was being done on them currently. You can rewatch the section they talked about in the video below at about 43:52.



    What I wonder is how high the demand is, and if community members have any possible suggestions for solutions to the problems Matt refers to (community members have already merged routes themselves, so they are creative and capable enough). A kind of brainstorming session if you will, while also showing that it is usefull for DTG to work on this, as there is demand (would we really mind paying a few bucks, 5 euros or so, for the work they put in? Maybe making the merger come with a loco to justify a higher price could also be a possibility).

    Route merging could offer great possibilities in the future. For example, my Köln - Wuppertal suggestion could link RSN, RRO that route and SKA,
    and my Riesa - Leipzig suggestion could link Rapid Transit, that suggestion, Riesa - Dresden and my Dresden-Neustadt - Děčín suggestion.

    Anyways, please let me know you thoughts below :).
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  2. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    First problem is that last gen consoles won't be able to run it.
    Second, it would take a lot of development time to make the game core capable of linking the routes in the way they explained in the video.
    Third, it increases the development time for every new route because you have to test and debug the timetable alone and then with every combination of having this and not having that, etc ...

    We are frequently seeing that they can't do much easier things because of budget / development cost. Right now I think this is way out of reach.

    PS: Forgot to mention that right now every DLC is its own world. Each has its own copy of all trains, etc ... Many of them are not even built exactly the same way as others. If they wanted to do this, they would need to start by making every piece of stock be compatible with every route that is to be linked.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  3. StratoCruizer

    StratoCruizer New Member

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    To be honest i iot quite excited when they started to speak about that, and when it didn't seem like something too abstract but something that has been or is somewhere down the development line of TSW.

    I think Matt said it, it would be nice to have a merger on the client side, so if you own both routes they will snap or blend into one. With a common timetable for the whole extent of the route. If you don't own both routes ai trains/services would just vacate via a Portal.

    I've read some other suggestions with a pop up or the one with the SPAD signal, that kind of uses checkpoints to load you into another route. It's a nice idea but more of a workaround, a bit immersion breaking. in the end one continuous "world" where you add little pieces of the puzzle (routes) is the ultimate experience I believe, where you can drive from Aachen to idk, finnentrop or even further away with no interruptions.
     
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  4. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    That wouldn't be an issue because if you listen to Matt's aspirations, the game will just treat it as one long route, and won't have any effect on memory usage. Matt's said many times there's no technical limitation in the game or the hardware as to why routes in TSW are shorter than TS1 routes, generally - the reason is simply down to development time.

    I think if they do do it, I imagine they'll only really want to do it for intercity and long distance routes (eg ECML, WCML or an LGV, or ICE route), not something like Wuppertal - Finnentrop
     
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  5. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Those issues do indeed play a role, but Matt truly made it sound like it wasn't some inachievable dream. I do worry about increased QA time aswell though.
     
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  6. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't see why not Wuppertal-Finnetrop. It could provide longer freight services, which are also higly requested. Though of course route merging would have the highest effect on long distance fast passenger traffic, where you run out of 80 km of track very quickly.
     
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  7. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    That is the case if the route only increases in map size and not in the number of services / stock moving around. If you join the routes and services, the complexity of the system the dispatcher has to deal with increases significantly.

    We can't have all the services in the Bakerloo line right now. It is not because because DTG doesn't want to give it to us, it is because they can't with the tech they have at the moment.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  8. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Hardware dependancies aside, it is very much achievable if money was no issue, but if money was not an issue I would have my own real life train collection in my backyard.
     
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  9. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That's not entirely accurate. Each has its own copy of its own "native" rolling stock, both the defaults and any DLC for which it is the "home" route; but layered rolling stock is imported from another route. SKA doesn't have a copy of the 422; it's simply borrowed from RRO, if present.
     
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  10. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Yes, because those are compatible or were made compatible, but it is not always the case.
     
  11. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    I wouldn't mind paying again for a merged route with new time table. Isn't a new time table on a existing route what they tried with the "Diesel Legends" pack? I wouldn't mind paying that for a bigger route. True, the older consoles can't run it and I am not sure how many players they have on PC to see if its worth it. But maybe the next gens are better at running the route and once they release the new update, maybe they can look at analytics in a year to see if its viable.
     
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  12. johnjohn190690

    johnjohn190690 Active Member

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    I would buy route extensions it's whether others will follow and development time. Köln - Wuppertal LGV Avignon - Lyon Köln - Frankfurt Am Main SEHS extended to Ashford International HMA extended to either Ulm or Stuttgart these routes I would buy day one if the extensions came. What Matt said was encouraging tbh I think once more routes come the question will become louder. So many possibilities now and then in a year or two will be even more routes. We'll definitely be heading back to Köln I reckon just my thought was my favourite route once TSW2 released.
     
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  13. GuitarMan

    GuitarMan Well-Known Member

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    The real risk is running into the dependencies black hole that exists in TS2020 - to run this dlc you need “insert list twice as long as your arm of DLC that will cost £500 in a sale”

    ok I exaggerate- but this should be avoided at all costs, it’s bad enough that loco dlc has to have a home route. I wouldn’t want to see any extra dependencies in DLC.

    TSW works well in the fact most DLC only needs the base game, and locos have a home route (I’d rather locos be independent but I do get the logic behind that one)
     
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  14. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I voted for the second option. Although I don’t own ECW yet (hello summer sale) that to me would be a prime candidate for merging into L to B when we get it. With or without Lewes to Wivelsfield. Throw in a 4VEP and I would hand over £15 or thereabouts for it.
     
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  15. StratoCruizer

    StratoCruizer New Member

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    yeah true that, needing a DLC for a DLC for a DLC for a DLC is a nightmare. but i think if they keep that merging client side, as they said, we can largely come around that issue.
     
  16. lukereynolds1

    lukereynolds1 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if there could be a temporary solution until connecting routes is implemented. For example, when Brighton to Victoria exists, at Brighton station there could be an objective marker that allows you to transport to East Coast Way at the same time of day/weather conditions etc and visa versa? At least this would prevent us having to go through menus to switch routes. Having said that, I have no idea how easy or difficult this would be to implement.
     
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  17. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I think routes should be purchaseable and playable independently, with the merger, as mentioned, on the client side of things. Extensions aren't ideal to me, and only make sense in a few cases.
     
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  18. uvm0902

    uvm0902 Active Member

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    If there is a problem of combining customer-based routes, the solution may be to sell parts of the routes and the combined route by different DLS with their own services. For customers who have one of the routes, the combined route is sold at a discounted price. This is how JUST TRAIN routes are sold
     
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  19. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    That seems like a really good idea, it could solve a lot of the problems. This way people that already have both routes can have a merger at a low price, while new players can buy the entire route in one go (albeit with a higher price).

    I only wonder if the seperate routes should also remain playable. For example: should RSN and RRO remain playable seperately, because then you have 3 routes in the menu, which might get cluttered, but I think something can be figured out for that. Maybe submenus for each area are possible, like having a 'rhein-ruhr-sieg area' in the main menu, that allows you to select either RSN, RRO, HRR, SKA or a merged route when you click on it. Even without merging that might be a good option, as the menu is getting more and more cluttered with every new route.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
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  20. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I really do hope interconnected routes become a thing one day. Eventually getting the whole NEC, WCML, ECML etc as well as just making routes feel more real would be awesome indeed.
     
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  21. trainsimcz

    trainsimcz Well-Known Member

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    Well i guess in that stream Matt was talking about me and my merged routes when he was talking about community :)
    RRO and RSN
    [​IMG]

    LIRR and NEC (this one is from TSW 2020):
    [​IMG]
     
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  22. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    I think that the first step could be just extend a bit a route. An extention will be much easy to develop, just some changes at the current services on timetable and not merge it with new service. For exemple, a first thing could be add some branches and freight yards to koln on SKA. Everyone have SKA (included in TSW2) so the player base that can buy it are much more than LGV for exemple. And i will pay up to 15€ for 20/30km of route.
     
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  23. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I do hope it happens but I have a feeling it might only become a thing when (looking long into the future here) TSW3 is/maybe/possibly released and the restrictions of the last generation consoles are left behind. Pure speculation on my part, but just the impression I have.
     
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  24. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent idea because the next Generation consoles can handle this type of Operation due to their processing ability. If they want to test this function use RRO & RSN joined together at Hagen Hbf and Rolling Stock to boot up the other DLC route for you. Example for this is Riesa-Dresden where the IC2 set your on gives out a pop up screen at Riesa do you like to continue the service to Wuppertal yes or no? If Yes is Chosen RRO is booted up for you where the Same IC2 set you're on appears at Hagen Hbf for the trip to Wuppertal. On the other hand if the no option is chosen you are given the choice continue Journey return to free roam and return to main menu.
     
  25. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I guess all we can do is create demand and ask about extensions on every platform , stream and communication
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
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  26. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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  27. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Mergers and extensions are two very different things.
     
  28. trainsimgaming1001

    trainsimgaming1001 Well-Known Member

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    One thing I would like:

    Can someone tell me how this was done and at least where I can download them?
     
  29. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Active Member

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    I think merged routes will be future of tsw. Single sections for those like how it is now, network sections for those who like long runs.

    I guess the key to develop the merge effective doesnt exist now without spending a hell of time to fix layers etc.

    Im sure if dtg gets the tools done to merge routes and create layers in an effective way, this could be a next level experience.
     
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  30. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Correct and if you own Rapid Transit RRO RSN using the DB BR182 OBB 1116/1016 on a Wuppertal Steinbeck to Finnentrop Run you're going to be hearing Chris Lohner PZB LZB Sifa voice prompts for the whole 1hr 30 to 2hr trip
     
  31. tubefan1973

    tubefan1973 Well-Known Member

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    What about, merge the 2 or more routes then sell it as a new DLC and make it so that if you own the appropriate routes you get it at a reduced or no cost???
     
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  32. Stephen Crofts

    Stephen Crofts Well-Known Member

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    That’s an interesting concept. Certainly gets around the timetable issues mentioned so far. Could also be a way to do longer term justice to some of those big hitters like ecml/wcml.
     
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  33. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    It's not bad idea if the discount system works properly for those that own the route. I think there should be a 40-45% discount for owning one route (out of two), as some additional money has to be made to cover the costs of merging the routes and creating a new timetable.

    Perhaps DTG could also add an additional loco to the merged route, and then charge a bit more, if that helps covering the costs and makes players feel like they're getting more bang for their buck.
     
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  34. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I think BML and ECW present a perfect opportunity for a route merger. There is a short section between the two routes that is currently not modeled. What could be done is to copy both BML and ECW together into a new DLC (so both are part of one new DLC as suggested before), and add the missing section between both (so that we can get the Victoria - Eastbourne services). That way, there is further justification to pay a bit even if you own both routes already, as the timetables need to be adjusted but you also get the new piece of track. And then people who own BML and/or ECW get the new DLC for a reduced price.
    Of course it is not up to us to decide on prices, but I could imagine the DLC to cost something like 45 to 50€ (you basically get a package of two routes for a reduced price), and you get a 20€ discount for each route of the pack you already own, i.e. the merger would cost someone who already has the routes something like 5 to 10€ which would be a good price I would say and should give DTG enough budget to make it a reality :)
     
  35. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Hmm.... I'm not sure. Sure, longer routes would be nice, but nothing stops me from loading up one partial route, and then starting a drive on the other partial route with the same train. It's a loading screen extra.

    If a route merger comes for free, sure, there's pretty much no reason not to use it, and it may perhaps be an extra reason to buy a certain DLC to complete the route (even when it's just another modern German electric route...). But if you want me to pay for a route merger, which contains no new tracks... I don't know... not sure the merge itself would be enough content. At least it'd need to come with a merged timetable. I guess you might end up with a DLC similar to Diesel Legends, of which its main content is the new timetable.

    I'm not a fan of combining merger DLC with a new loco. That'd basically mean you'd need at least 2 routes to be able to use a certain loco, while I'd prefer loco DLCs not being dependant on any route DLC at all.
     
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  36. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    This is an important consideration and applies to a lot of the bundle suggestions I've seen recently. Not everybody owns all the routes and uptake of loco DLC is already smaller than route DLC. If the loco was part of a deal which required you to have two or more specific routes in your collection, you'd be shutting out or turning off even more potential buyers.

    What if I have both of the routes, but only really play and enjoy one of them, and I want to use the loco, but don't want the merge?
     
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  37. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I think the way they need to consider is modular. I come back to Lego, I think the future builds should be made so if longer end to end routes are planned you can buy them bit by bit as they are released or as a bundle once a whole route is complete.

    Regarding the locos I think this comes down to planning. I think here the loco dlcs perhaps need to be standalone with a capacity to be used on any or whole section of route
     
  38. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I think Train Simulator does it pretty well. You can buy any loco and use it on any route in the Quick Drive mode (closest thing we have to TSW Timetable mode) or user created scenarios. You only need a specific route to play the scenarios (which is quite logical).

    I believe I've also seen a few route mergers available on the workshop. I can't find them, but I remember Rivet themselves uploading a merger of two of their route DLCs. That means for anyone who owned both routes, you'd be getting the merger for free.

    And then there's the thing with route extensions, but not sold as extension. Like DTG first making and selling Bristol - Cardiff for Train Simulator, and not long after creating the extended Bristol - Swansea route, selling it again, not requiring the earlier Bristol - Cardiff.

    Not saying what Train Simulator does is ideal, but it's better than what TSW currently does. (Which is no route mergers/extensions, and loco DLC can't be used at all without a specific route).
     
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  39. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    You can get two methods of BML ECW merger one is at Wivelsfield 2nd at Brighton. Wivelsfield is the more realistic option you can split the inbound Service to Eastbourne and Brighton from London Victoria. Return to London Victoria from Eastbourne and Brighton Station is combine the ECW Class 377 Eastbourne with BML Class 377 Brighton service for London Victoria at Wivelsfield.
     
  40. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    This would require new track being built in the game.
     
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  41. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    What would be their best option to do ECW BML merge? Will that be a Switch at Brighton on both ECW & BML or a connecting booth for BML ECW. Germany it's RRO RSN via the Hagen Gbf junction.
     
  42. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Active Member

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    If dtg does the work, best would be connecting at brighton and finish the tracks going from lewes to the junction south of wivelsfield.

    A benefit beside the network would be to make the eastcoastway freight runs much longer.

    For a modder brighton probably is the best solution.
     
  43. davejc64

    davejc64 Well-Known Member

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    I like the idea of merging routes but wouldn't want to pay extra.
     

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