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Sandpatch - Disappointing

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by OldVern, Nov 20, 2020.

  1. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    About the update: Yeap, that what I always understood, that the rear pair master had to be set as a leader as well. The cutin mode only determined if loco was contributing to brakes or not, but it couldn´t be set as trail unit. I made a test in the yard.

    Map.jpg

    With the following config and radios on in both masters and off in the rear slave all works well. Brakes are released and applied in the 3 units correctly. This also works if in the rear master the valve is set to cutoff, which would be the most correct way indeed, as with it we disable the local brake control on that cab.

    Working config.jpg

    But if I set the rear master as trail the brakes on the rear pair are never released, as you can see below. This is the front master with brakes released:

    First Master.jpg

    This is the rear pair master with brakes still applied:

    Second Master.jpg

    And this is the rear pair slave with brakes also still applied:

    Second Slave.jpg

    Mmmm... but it seems we have a bug, as the rear pair is never providing any power, independently to what we set on their engine controls. I will send a ticket.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  2. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    For me, everything works OK if set as suggested \o/

    I always check every cabin. The problem is with this one valve basically.
    I skip the DB for AC and what the HUD displays here.

    Set it as in my table and the problems disappear! It only covers this one error in the instruction from the DTG. Everything else is OK. I tested it together with many people from this forum and there is nothing to look for magic there :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  3. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Brakes are working, yes, but the power is what is not working. Rear pairs do not produce smoke nor thrust on their amps indicators, no matter what engine or radio settings you use. I just made the test and reported it. If you have just two engines coupled to each other the power works well in both, but the pairs connected by radio in a distributed setup no.

    Cheers
     
  4. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Aaaahhh... Wait, wait... It works, you are right. I was missing to activate the banking com in the front engine. I will update my steam guide with this :D

    Bank.png

    Cheers
     
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  5. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    For me, POWER is generated good as well.
    Banking Comm is some kind of "cheat".
    This is for someone who doesn't want to set up all this manually.

    Banking Comm set up some things incorrectly, so - yeah - there is sometimes 'no power':

    PS in this thread with pictures https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/this-is-game-is-annoying.26003/#post-208927

    I made SPG in HH, TSW1, TSW2020, TSW2 - ain't no problems in Journeys / some problems in other services because of bugs or weather vs HPT ratio / AC is partially bugged too :D BR \o/

    DPU is working OK but some IFD indication nuances - another story.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  6. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Nope, that is not unit "D", it is actually unit "C" (only one rear DPU so it must be set to lead, though the brakes are still cut out). There is no "D" unit on this train. It doesn't matter which direction the unit is facing by the way; if it is the first unit in a set of DPUs, it needs to be configured as as Lead.
    That only measures the brake cylinder of the lead locomotive, which I am bailing off (as is prototypical on North American railroads). Thus, the lead loco brake cylinder will show as 0 but the rest of the train should be dumping.
     
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  7. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I made Powering America (<<<?) a few days ago without any problems, I think. Will try again, heh :)
    Maybe I just didn't notice something was not working. Or I got used to it, after all these ... years :D DTG, whyyy
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  8. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    It is probably because you did not bail off the lead locomotive when using the train brake. It's probably not something most of the simmers here know to do, but engineers do that on trains to reduce slack action when braking. It allows for the lead loco to stretch the couplers out a bit while they're applying their brakes instead of bunching them all up. For some reason if you do not bail off, it does an OK job at braking, but if you do bail off (as you should IRL), suddenly the brakes become super weak (or rather the effect is that the indy is too strong to begin with)! That is probably the main difference between my experience and others is that I am bailing off the lead locomotive brake.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  9. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I always bail off. For stretching or just because of 10 PSI initial reduction (I think it should be 6) :)
    PS This game is broken at times, so it's possible, something doesn't work haha, but I'll check anyway, I'll try to record any detected anomalies! BR o7
     
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  10. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Well good news, the two SD40's are now talking to each other, thanks to the advice in this thread. Rattling along nicely albeit now down to about 14 MPH on the 1.5% grade up to Mance. At least once you can get moving, the physics do seem more realistic in this incarnation of the route.
     
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  11. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the club of the dogged! Bravo! \o/
     
  12. ScottN

    ScottN Active Member

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    I now got them working right by following the guide with setting up circuit breakers and radio comm.
     
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  13. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    Which guide, please, the Steam one?

    There’s been so many different sets of instructions provided, I’ve got no idea which is the most up-to-date or complete one we should follow.
     
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  14. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Like that https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o7zeIn-Nshe7_bzqkd7hQg2QrV0G9xNvBevPoxTunA8/edit#gid=0

    Oryginal manual from DTG:
    http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/530070/manuals/Operator_Manual_EN.pdf?t=1489684294

    One correction only:

    [​IMG]

    But, Cut-off valve / Auto brake to CUT OUT (lead DPU loco)

    <<< [..LEAD..][..TRAIL..][..consist..][..lead DPU..][..TRAIL..]
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  15. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I’m sure the folks at DTG are all having a jolly good laugh at everyone trying to figure this out and their lack of providing accurate information as to what actually is supposed to be the correct way of setting up. There have been literally hundreds of posts about these issues and not once has anyone from DTG stepped in to clarify exactly what is supposed to happen, what the intended correct method of setup is or whether there are in fact any bugs involved, despite several members giving their best advice and occasional incorrect advice. Maybe nobody at DTG has any idea either? Maybe the person who designed the system should write some definitive instructions that actually work when you follow them.
     
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  16. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    I don´t think DTG does not reply for some kind of obscure reason. One of the important outputs of topics like these one is that it allows the exchange of information between users, including knowledge of how real systems work. I have learned a lot of things about game itself and about railways in general in discussions like this one. For instance yesterday I played like half an hour on the yard just to test and understand the distributed power setup, and thanks to the feedback from users who already knew how it worked I was able to make it work as well.

    I agree that some things may need to be improved in the game documentation but this also allows that users create their own tutorials and guides, which is good for the community too. I was able to understand the procedure to even update my own steam guide, so for me this topic was very interesting.

    Cheers
     
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  17. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    There is a certain irony in that (to me) it’s actually harder to configure MU and DPU working in TSW2 than it is in Run 8, where you just tick a couple of boxes when you select the lead engine.
     
  18. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't have said it better myself. That's exactly how I managed to get through the SPG scenarios and services. However, not all new players are going to read through the forum threads to find this information and the question remains: Why should they have to? The documentation from the publisher should be sufficient to allow new players to complete the assignments, and, bugs aside, judging by the never-ending posts on this subject, that's clearly not the case at present.
     
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  19. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It's more realistic to move the actual controls as opposed to clicking boxes.
     
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  20. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. Run8 cab realism is close to none (with all my love for this game) :)
     
  21. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I would not want to play this game if all you had to do was jump in the cab, click a box or two and go. I could go back to TS 2021 if I wanted that. Not to disparage TS, which I was happy to play for 10 years and has its attractions still.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020
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  22. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Well I wouldn't quite go that far but, 1. It has the most non-user friendly and non-mnemonic keyboard commands ever conceived (Ctrl this, Ctrl that) and, 2. The physics are not that demanding even in high difficulty mode. About the only thing you have to watch is where you put the mid train helpers in the consist when tackling Tehachapi eastbound as you can easily break a coupler.
     
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  23. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    The strength of Run8 simply isn't the clickable cabin - that's what I meant. Besides - many advantages, but this is probably not the place for this type of review :D yhyhyhyhy
     
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  24. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I would rather set the brakes, breakers, etc myself than click on a checkbox. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy Run8, great physics, realistic operations, but immersion is lacking in the cab since most are not fully interactive as TSW.
     
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  25. Jonsutt1

    Jonsutt1 Member

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    I don't think that multiple unit operation works correctly in TSW2 Sand Patch Grade. In between system crashes (my setup doesn't like TSW2 at present), I've just experimented with a two locomotive consist in the yard. I've set the controls as follows:

    Front Loco

    Engine Run: On
    Gen Field: On
    Control & Fuel Pump: On
    Brake Cut-off Valve: Freight
    MU-2A Valve: Lead or Trail

    Rear Loco

    Engine Run: On
    Gen Field: On
    Control & Fuel Pump: On
    Brake Cut-off Valve: Freight
    MU-2A Valve: Lead or Trail

    If my understanding is correct, the rear loco should not contribute any power, neither should it contribute any braking i.e. it is 'Dead in Tow'.
    Yet when I operate the train brake in the front loco, the brake cylinder gauge in the rear loco shows readings corresponding to my actions. This seems wrong.
    Also, when I apply power to accelerate the train, the power ammeter in the rear loco shows that it is providing corresponding power. This also seems wrong.
    Anyone agree?
     
  26. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o7zeIn-Nshe7_bzqkd7hQg2QrV0G9xNvBevPoxTunA8/edit#gid=0

    Basically, this whole thread is about how to set it up :) Examples:

    <<< [..LEAD..][..TRAIL..] [..consist..] [..DPU LEAD..][..TRAIL..]
    <<< [..LEAD..][..TRAIL..][..TRAIL..] [..consist..] [..DPU LEAD..][..TRAIL..][..TRAIL..]
    <<< [..LEAD..] [..consist..] [..DPU LEAD..] [..consist..] [..DPU LEAD..]
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
  27. Jonsutt1

    Jonsutt1 Member

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    What I was testing in my post was to set up the locos so that one was 'Dead in Tow', then observe whether the brakes and power in the rear loco perform as expected. In my opinion they don't, which casts some doubt as to whether the settings discussed above will produce the correct results.
     
  28. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    What do You mean by saying 'rear'? Rear TRAIL loco?
    [..LEAD..][..consist..][..'rear'..] << ?

    For me, it works perfectly in terms of power and brakes. HUD, AC4400CW IFD indications, DB - sometimes buged :)
     
  29. Jonsutt1

    Jonsutt1 Member

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    I meant the rear loco (the trailing one) of a two loco consist.
     
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  30. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    OKAY. I'll check out of boredom. Maybe you've spotted the first bug in this game
    IRONY WARNING
     
  31. ht-57

    ht-57 Member

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  32. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    What breblimator explained is the working config, in game at least. The point is that you can´t set a DPU master as dead in tow, as it´s required that it has engines switches ON for the distributed power setup to work so that it can replicate the power settings to its trailing units. You can set trail units as dead in tow inside any locomotive group, but not any group master unit itself. But with brakes it´s possible as the dead in tow setup is indeed the one needed by the banking group masters. This is how I updated my steam guide, in case it helps:

    USA Master-Slave.jpg

    USA Master-Slave-Groups.jpg

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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  33. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    So nice, geloxo! This is really very neat! GJ \o/
    If that's not a problem, please link to the entire guide :)
     
  34. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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  35. Stockton Rails

    Stockton Rails Well-Known Member

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    ...really nice effort putting all of this info together- I’ve posted plenty on these forums on proper DPU setup over the last few months, but my lists never looked as good as yours! That said, I do have a couple of suggestions to make the following lines a little clearer for folks... other than this I think your summary looks perfect.

    - change third line at the top of the second pic to read ‘Any group master needs distributed power and radio circuit breakers activated’... this makes it clear that we’re talking about the circuit breakers for the devices, and not the switches on the devices themselves

    - modify the line above the banking radio pic at the end of your doc, to make sure people know the only Banking Radio that is actually turned on (via the DISP button) is the one in the lead unit at the front of the train
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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  36. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Nice suggestion, thanks. I just updated the steam guide and the post picture here.

    Cheers
     
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  37. Jonsutt1

    Jonsutt1 Member

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    Thanks for that ht. Switching the isolation switch to Start Stop/Isolate does indeed prevent the trailing loco from providing traction power.

    I've been researching multiple unit ops and now think that when a loco is 'Dead in Tow', it is correct that its brakes still respond to the drivers actions, irrespective of that loco's Brake Cut-off Valve and MU-2A Valve settings.
     
  38. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Cut-off Valve is just for the main-control-master-loco-power-unit to be IN. Just for this one. In real life & in this game. Nothing to do with other settings!

    PS Cut-IN just means you have to use this lever in this cabin to control the brakes of the entire train. Nothing else :)
    Other switches: as in the manual (p.10, 11...) or as in tutorials like the one above by geloxo.

    TSW MANUAL FOR SPG <- link
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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  39. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Be prepared for more settings in the trailing units if they implement the series --> series-parallel selector for the engine generators in the older engines they may include in the DLCs. Now the Caltrain shunter has it at least. This is going to become even more complex :o :D Definitely master/slave configuration is one interesting old school driving process with the american locomotives.

    Cheers
     
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  40. Jonsutt1

    Jonsutt1 Member

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    Thanks for that Breb. Slowly managing to get my brain round it!
     
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  41. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    My brain ached terribly from reaching this knowledge (the error in the instruction from DTG did not help). Finally, I found the original instructions for the analogous (ES44) locomotive, compared it with how the game works, and breathed a sigh of relief. Maybe that's why I'm so excessively contributing here. If you are just as stubborn, you won't be satisfied if something works, because it is - but how, but why? Exactly :D PS And maybe sometimes I describe something enigmatically, but unfortunately I don't know English. Each attempt to participate in this type of technical discussion shortens my life by at least one day... /o\
    Overall, these are simplifications in our recommendations here. Hope we'll be taken to a higher level someday.

    TEASER :) (the fragment about this... this... this !@#$ cut-off valve...) ehehe :D
    I paste again - maybe someone does not have:
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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  42. ht-57

    ht-57 Member

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    Re- trailing unit dead in tow- (not producing power)
    Definition of isolation switch-
    ISOLATE – When the engine is running and the EC switch is in the ISOLATE position, the engine speed is held at IDLE and power cannot be applied to the locomotive.-
    IRL the "gen field" switch is off and the isolation is set to "start/isolate" which also works in the sim, pretty cool that it replicates actual operation.
    Here's a link to the actual EMD 38-2, Operators manual for anyone who's interested
    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/gp38-index.html
    Here's a link to a Gevo series
    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/es44dc-om.pdf
     
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  43. Jonsutt1

    Jonsutt1 Member

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    I'm trying the 'Fully Fuelled' scenario. Does anyone know how to quickly move from the cab of a leading group loco, to the cab of a banking group loco and vice-versa. 'Ctrl +' toggles between cabs of the leading group. 'Ctrl -' doesn't seem to do anything. The train's half a mile long.
     
  44. ht-57

    ht-57 Member

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    Should Be lft "cntrl" plus "+" or "-" as you stated. If your in lead loco, Hitting either the plus or the minus should put you to the back of train
    I can't recall which but it does work.. It can be confusing if they all the same units
     
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  45. Bertil Persson

    Bertil Persson Active Member

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    In Powering America part 2 there is ONE single unit in the rear. Should it be set as lead with the banking radio on and brakes cut out, like the lead in a banking pair? Lead cut in - trail cut out - - train - - lead cut out? In TSW2 there’s no engine sound in the banker. In TSW 2020 the engine works properly in the setup above. In Yoder-Cumberland there’s lead and trail in the front and they seem to have easier to stop. Rightly configured they seem to work well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
  46. ht-57

    ht-57 Member

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    @Bertil
    Your set up sounds correct, if you want it to provide power (sounds like u know this but) the "engine run"/field gen/ fuel pump breakers in off position and isolation switch set to run-
    I haven't played thru this scenario in TSW2, but I have had that issue on a service- what I did was shut the "banker' (no sound engine)
    down then restarted it and after a little delay in it starting sequence it fired and worked.- You can check it by leaving lead in neutral
    and notch up to 4 or 5 then free cam to rear and make sure the banker is responding to throttle input.
     
  47. Bertil Persson

    Bertil Persson Active Member

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    Thanks! I will try.
     
  48. Bertil Persson

    Bertil Persson Active Member

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    It works! But I guess it’s the engine sound failing. Although I think I feel a little more acceleration and a little more power on the dynamic brakes. Not sure! Save the scenario and go back to start the saved scenario and you’ll have to get back and stop and restart the rear end loco again. So who knows...?
     
  49. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    In general - savings causes problems with several things - particularly on the DPU and sometimes the MU set-ups -- Best to avoid using the feature if you can. What I do if I have to save is make sure the consist is stopped and I am not waiting for any timed event such as passenger loading to complete, then I will save. Upon resuming the game - check engine settings and DPU/MU set-up if applicable. Seems to work most times, but have had the scheduler lose it mind a few times and never clear a block in front since the AI train either had not cleared before the save and had no re-appeared after the resume... or it was just being cantankerous...
     
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  50. Bertil Persson

    Bertil Persson Active Member

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    I do understand that. I did save the scenario earlier when the horn jumped off at a station and the train went on. After restart of the save and readjusting where necessary I had the horn back again. The same thing happened on the Caltrain route in TSW2020 but I didn't know how to do then. So if it happens again I'll make a try. Thank you anyway!
     

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