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Speculation: Goodbye Editor?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Alex656, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Too many to mention. Just about every time DTG put out anything official someone asks the question and the answer is almost always "We're still working on it", which I agree would be infuriating to those who think the editor is more important than air...
     
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  2. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    TSW needs the editor to keep it going, it’s currently on life support receiving DLC every few months, ticking along doing...ok. With the editor comes 3rd parties who can work on their own DLC to what DTG are working on, we’ll get DLC every few weeks to every month, we’ll see more variety of routes more often and DTG will generate more money in return.

    Without the editor TSW will die a slow death.
     
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  3. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    We wonder if they are not already dead.
    No news, no short or medium term forecasts.
    It's brexit at DYG.
     
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  4. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    Nah, DTG and TSW are still alive, with the number of players slowly growing and new DLCs being produced. They continue to iterate about the editor being developed just to avoid losing a big part of the community.

    However, all of this could change from one day to another, take FSW as an example.
     
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  5. DigitalRails

    DigitalRails Member

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    Did Bus Simulator 18 had an editor & multiplayer from day 1?
    I am unable to recall.
     
  6. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    BS18 uses a not really modified UE4 editor. So they dont have all the problems like DTG will have with TSW editor. And asking, how much 3th party addons are availabe for BS18 yet? Right, not much. And that's given with a available editor that was there from start and is just standard UE4 tech. Not a really impressive amount of DLC stuff. How many 3th party DLC will you expect from a heavily modified UE4 base editor then? I do expect not much in the first years of being able to use the editor as 3th party. I also do not expect much freeware stuff then, because of the restriction of the ecosystem UE4 itself. You need to create all your stuff from scratch. As Matt said one day the editor will be able to open cooked assets (Routes and maybe Scenery) you will be able to use the scenery on your own routes BUT you can't modify them or modify the routes. If you want to edit a route (like it is often done for German routes) you will need to build it up again from scratch since you cant save your edits or cook them out with no metadata given.
     
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  7. Here we are not waiting for the Messiah...
     
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  8. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    I think UE4 isnt the best platform for simulation by the sounds of it. There’s a lot you can’t do because of this cooking process. I didn’t know you needed to be Ainsley Harriott to create addons.

    Jokes aside - since Civilisation, Sim City etc has been around, creating your own content and being able to edit has been part and parcel of the EULA and also general maintenance of the game; all these bugs were not part of simulation before if so it wouldn’t of lasted 5 minutes let alone until now. So these excuses about editor can’t and cannot and isn’t able to is a real let down. OMSI and TS1 still exist because of the editor
     
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  9. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    It is a bit hard for me to understand there really is nothing woth saying. You might say (choose one or more, or adapt hem):

    - We are struggling with a big issue and we not have a clue on how to solve it, we we keep trying (or maybe: we are dependent on efforts by other companies, e.g Unreal).
    - We made good progress but documenting it takes much more time than we anticipated. We are working on it.
    - We made good progress, but the closed beta reveals the tool is really too complicated....
    - We are preparing an awesome surprise for you next month (my preferred answer)

    Maybe, you should not try to achieve perfection. The TS2020 editor is crap but we got used to it and can do wonderful things. So perfection is not really required and just imagine the amount of feedback you can collect for free, though I recommend to make sure o have a good feedback system, where people can vote (something like Microsoft has).

    I think the answer "noting to tell" is definitely not what we want to hear.
     
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  10. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I don't find the lack of communication from DTG surprising, after all DTG are consistently weak on communication and always have been.

    What I find unbelievable is that the Editor has been repeatedly delayed because DTG are seeking perfection before release. This philosophy of 'getting it right' before release applies to no other DTG product, past or present, whether it's DLC or the base game itself. So I don't believe the reason for the lack of an Editor is due to extreme diligence by DTG, as it contradicts their development philosophy for all other products.
     
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  11. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Who said they were seeking perfection?
     
  12. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Seems fairly obvious that development has not gone how they planned, or they would have released it in line with their original plan. We know it's running late and they've already said they're still working on it, so why not just take that as your option #1 and enjoy what you have for the moment. If you're serious about developing new routes etc, then surely you can start building models and learning the basics of UE4, so you'll be ready to start import assets when the time comes.
     
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  13. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I think their biggest issue is getting it to access cooked content.
     
  14. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Last year I recall Matt saying on Discord that if it isn’t released by the end of 2019 he’d be very disappointed.

    Obviously something hasn’t gone quite right or there are things which are a lot bigger or more complex than they originally anticipated.

    Regardless of how long they’ll take, whether they’re trying to seek perfection or not, one thing that is guaranteed, especially at the first release, is that there WILL be bugs.
     
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  15. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Which, according to several people I know with a lot of experience in UE4, is not possible to do without creating a Public Editor which can access cooked content from other games; This is something Epic will not allow to happen. Apparently the only way around this issue is to create a proprietary format for files and a bespoke in-game Editor unrelated to the UE4 Editor, similar to that TS2020 has. This would be a huge undertaking that I can't see DTG pursuing.

    It's clear now that DTG were inexperienced when they started developing TSW, once they realised the issue with the Public Editor they were too far down the development road with TSW.

    Once again, I invite DTG to provide us with some evidence that the Public Editor exists, so far we have seen nothing, despite 3 years of development. Not a video, not a screenshot and no description of how they have overcome the known barriers to development. Absolutely nothing.
     
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  16. GothicMatt

    GothicMatt Active Member

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    Digital Draftsman are you ever happy with what you have already or do you always seem to complain? for all we know there could be problems with the editor thats why nothing has been said but that doesnt mean they arent working on it have patience
     
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  17. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I like the Class 31 and Tees Valley route a lot: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/tsw-glorious-gargoyle.19299/#post-103748

    Recently I've been defending DTG regarding the M2: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/ts20-s8-spectacular.20353/#post-113038

    When DTG are doing things right or are incorrectly accused of something, I'm happy praising or defending them. When DTG are doing things I see as wrong I'll call them out and provide suggestions for how they could do better. Overall I think I'm fair and constructive in my criticism and praise of DTG.

    You're asking for patience, but it's been three years in development. How many years is it acceptable to wait before criticising how long it's taking? The wait is compounded by the fact we've been given no evidence that it's actually being developed.
     
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  18. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It does seem to be an obsession for a few. Even when they have said they are still working on it, a handful still can't let go and have to keep recycling the same mantra nearly every day.

    I honestly don't know whether it is genuine concern for the editor or if they just want cause to criticise. It is easy to look like the good guy by making the odd positive comment and saying "see I stick up for DTG when it's merited". For me it is about balance and reading some forum members posts you would be lead to believe that this was the worse sim ever and DTG are some, big bad money grabbing corporation. And how do you measure when a "wait" is acceptable or not, most seem to be able to manage not to keep mentioning it ad-nauseum!
     
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  19. The question is: what kind of utility does this forum have besides a useless screenshots contest?
    DTG often communicates on Discord and not here.
     
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  20. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Probably because we don’t have people who constantly bash on DTG and who don’t ask for the rotide everyday.
     
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  21. PlatChap

    PlatChap Well-Known Member

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    I'm with Digital Draftsman.I have the mindset that actions speak louder than words and the actions that DTG have displayed versus their words paint the picture for me thus far.

    "We've been working on it for 3 years but have nothing to show and nothing to say about it" doesn't exactly sway me in DTG's favor. The silence is deafening and it tells me the project has more or less hit a stand still and that there is some form of gross mismanagement in there. Only DTG has the answers though and for now all we can do is idly wait but I wouldn't hold your breath .. I certainly am not. There is something there they don't want us to know.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
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  22. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    So, the TSW itself is nothing then? You wouldn't have a new TS at all without their hard work on it (remember, DTG is not Microsoft or such a big Studio, it has done something that no other would create these days -> risky niche products aka Train-Simulators). So wou should be happy that there is someone who does it for all of us. There is no meantion in the manual or product description about a delivered editor nor the ability to make own stuff yet. So from where comes all the demanding here? For me these are just wishes yet. That's ok so far, but stop ranting about it and DTG. If you overdoe this ranting and moaning they eventually stop to think about ginving you a editor. When DTG will have a editor, or the possibility to create own content in any way, they will tell us. Asking and ranting again and again about it will only delay it more and more. I would do so, if i would be the developer.
     
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  23. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    No one is over ranting or moaning we are all trying to strike up a constructive dialogue, and would like DTG to take a active approach and join in in on the dialogue. I highly doubt that DTG would would just stop making the editor because of that, besides it would be in DTG's best interest to get the editor released. As this would allow the third party dev's to make content for TSW. Then the amount of content to be released could potently double, and with that DTG could focus on bug fixes during that time.
     
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  24. TS a "niche" product with addons for over 8000 ... pounds!
    Not bad.
     
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  25. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    “We have nothing to say” really doesn’t fill me with confidence. I mean, seriously?

    Why not let the community know what’s been been going on and explain to us any troubles or hurdles you’re trying to get over. At least then we can have an understanding of what you’re dealing with.

    It’s almost as if you have a pre-set auto reply whenever you infrequently reply about the editor.

    “Keep an eye out of all the official channels for news” but DTG is seriously contradicting their self as there never does seem to be any news.

    Pot Calling the Kettle Black comes to mind...
     
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  26. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    The amount of DLC is a reason that it still exists yet. And no customer buys all of them. It's just a huge bunch of different stuff, build over about 10 years or so, where customers can select from. In terms of average revenue per customer TS is a niche product.
     
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  27. I don't see the correlation between a niche product and a not adequate communication with users.
    If anything it should be the exact opposite.
     
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  28. ShodanCat

    ShodanCat Member

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    I was very negative about TSW for a very long time. Back then it was more about performance issues, sim accuracy and bugs but recently I gave it another go and I've been having a lot of fun. However, TSW's gaping hole is the lack of at least scenario creation tools. Without any sort of dynamic gameplay (randomly generated switch lists and that sort of thing) all we have is what each route/loco comes with, and once you're done, you're done. I can't recommend TSW to anyone because the value proposition is SO BAD without at least Workshop scenario support.
     
  29. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Have you tried mods?
     
  30. To insert Mods worthy of this name, it is necessary to clone the basic model. To date this is not possible and one Mod excludes the other.
    It is not a very practical thing.
     
  31. ShodanCat

    ShodanCat Member

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    I assume you're talking about the "drive any loco on any route" stuff? If so, I really don't care about that. I'm more talking about scenarios and services we can drive, such as the system that TS2020 has had for a very long time.
     
  32. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    There are also repaints, sound mods, and route texture enhancements.
     
  33. PlatChap

    PlatChap Well-Known Member

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    It appears you've taken the entirety of my post out of context. No where in my post am I demanding anything and I am also talking about the editor seeing as this is a thread about that. DTG owe me nothing as far as the editor is concerned but that doesn't mean their deliberate silence goes unnoticed by myself and many other consumers. Just as much as they don't owe me anything, I certainly don't owe them anything as far as "thankfulness" is concerned. They aren't doing me any favors .. they made a product I've enjoyed in exchange for my money, no thanks required.

    As for the "no mention in the manual or product description about an editor", while that may be factually true they made plenty of official posts regarding the editor and it's development as well as several claims as to the release of the editor, all of which they pushed back indefinitely until going radio silent. They set the expectation themselves on that. I guess you must have missed those posts.

    We all have built up different expectations of this product over the years and if all of yours are personally being met, then that is wonderful and I will not try to take that away from you. I know that I myself am not merely content with being led by the hand with loose words and require something a little more substantial.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
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  34. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. When DTG stated that they planned to release the Editor before the end of 2017, this had a fundemental impact on how TSW was received on launch. Had DTG said that there was going to be no Editor, or that the Editor would take more than three years to develop, it would definitely have negatively impacted the sales of TSW. For many people the belief that the Editor was just a few months away would have influenced their decision to buy TSW and subsequent DLC, so people are justified in their frustrations.
     
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  35. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    So presumably all these people have stopped purchasing add-ons for TSW as the expected editor had not arrived and sales of DLC have now plummeted as a result, as these people no longer believe an editor is coming.
     
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  36. For many users the product is not satisfactory.
    A drop in sales is a logical consequence. It is a very normal market law.
     
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  37. DigitalRails

    DigitalRails Member

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    Don't blame me but FSW was thrown in garbage and a day before they were still promoting us to purchase their DLC
     
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  38. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Has there been a drop in sales though?
     
  39. I do not know! But if so it would be natural.
    You know what I mean?
     
  40. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Not all, but some. Of those for whom the Editor is important, some have stopped buying completely and some have bought fewer DLCs than they otherwise would have.

    At the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that DTG used the promise of a public Editor to help sell the game. Therefor it's reasonable for people who factored the Editor into their purchasing decisions to be frustrated. It's also reasonable to periodically request updates as to how it's progressing.
     
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  41. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    That wasn’t the selling point. They marketed it as a high quality train driving experience.
     
  42. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    They failed with the “high quality driving experience “ bit then given the amount of bugs that haven’t been corrected.

    Re word it to “half decent driving experience “ and I’ll agree with you.
     
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  43. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Can you prove that? I maybe know customers more than you with my ~8 year ts developent experience and selling over 100 different addons to customers. They talk alot if it is a long day, but at the end of the same day, they will buy it anyways. May be, that there are 5-10 people who really stop buying stuff because of a missing editor, but that doesnt count at all to the developers targeted audience market strategy. You won't care about 10 person if there are thousands of others that are happy with what they get (thats commonly, not only to train simulations or games). So the editor might not be the most prioritized thing at DTG yet. They say they are working on it, and i do believe in that. It will come when it is ready to use for everyone.

    Don't get me wrong. The editor is an important thing to TSW as it is to TS1. But the main path is to have a modern designed train driving experience that will stay for another decade or two after TS1. The editor will help at some point, yes, but not now, believe me. In TS1 the editor was integrated into the game, what makes it easy accessable to everyone. It is easy to use. Even the BPE is easy to use if you have digged into that. The new editor will be way harder to use. And even the TS1 editor was available from 2008, the first counting DLCs were starting in 2011 and later. Today there is alot of DLC from 3th parties out there, yes, but also alot from DTG itself (i guess the most of them are DTG DLC). That will happen to TSW too (i'm guessing here of course).
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, I hadn't read anything about an editor when I purchased TSW, which was when GWE came out.
     
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  45. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I haven't shipped as many TS addons as you have, although I was involved in the development of many of the first addons which were sold on Steam (over 10 years ago now) and I've shipped several addons since, both independently and as contractor.

    If DTG said on the release of TSW:
    Do you really think nobody would have been bothered and that sales of TSW and it's DLC would have been the same? I think it would have ended the franchise before it began. But that is just my opinion based on anecdotal evidence.
     
  46. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Yes, i think it wouldn't have been bothered many of the customers. Most of customers just want to play with a train for a short time after work or whatever. They don't care about making stuff with a complicated editor. Same counts for TS1 at least. There are a hand full of serious developers against how many thousand only-players? I would say its 1:10k. The editor is important to serious developers indeed. So you may one of them few poeple, and me of course. But don't project your opinion over all the casual market. I have done that mistake alot and learned alot from it. Just wait for the editor, and when it is there, and i will be there, start doing good stuff and prove that you really need the editor. I'm out now from this discussion as it makes no sense to me at all.
     
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  47. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Casual users don't use the Editor, but the content produced by developers using it is what keeps casual user engaged with TSW.
     
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  48. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think there is a middle ground. I am more than a casual player, quite a serious railway enthusiast but I am not too worried whether we have an editor, particularly with service mode included, I quite likely would never use it, my main hope with the editor is other third party developers will get on board. So I can live without it as long as DLC that interests me is produced.

    I think you are correct to say that a lot of users just aren't bothered by having an editor, in TS1 there seems to have been a lot less freeware produced than in MSTS and that stopped being developed by Microsoft almost as soon as it was released.

    I think that some people are using the editor as a stick to beat DTG with.
     
  49. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Well-Known Member

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    This is objectively false though. The vast majority of TS1's playerbase rarely ventured in the Editor, true, but they definitely consumed the creations of those that did. Workshop scenarios are the result of an editor, and is the primary reason for TS1's past and continual success.


    Imagine TS1 with no editor where all you had was "sometimes] AI-less free roam, and just the handful of scenarios included. It would have been a disaster and would be dead-on-arrival. Just take one look at the Steam workshop Scenarios page, and you can see the most popular Workshop scenario has 53,000 unique subscribers. I'd reckon that's a significant chunk of the playerbase, and that's only unique to the Munich-Augsburg route which not everyone may have.

    I don't know about you, but I can factually see why the editor is important to the longevity of this game, and for someone who considers them self a "serious railway enthusiast", if you don't want to see unique non-DTG base game scenarios and services, then that's on you, but for the rest of us, we will await further news on it.
     
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  50. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    TS1 would’ve died off a long time ago if there was no editor and if it was solely just DTG making content for it.

    Whether you use the editor or not, TSW really does need it to enable third party and the community to make their own content. It really will get the player base higher as well as more content being released on a much more frequent basis.

    Right now we are relying on DTG for everything content base in TSW. Which is only released every couple of months in comparison to TS1, which new content is created almost every day, freeware or payware.
     
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