I love steam, and have always wanted to enjoy steam in TSW - but the very unrealistic physics have always put me off. The locos have capabilities far in excess of their real-life counter-parts, including the ability to achieve very high speeds with heavy trains, and an almost infinite capability to maintain boiler pressure. I started looking more closely at what was going wrong, and it appears the main issue is to do with the dampers. Having the dampers open appears to generate very large amounts of steam, particularly at speed, and I wondered how realistically the locos would perform without this affect. I examined logs of the running of real locos in the later years of steam in the UK, examining performance with certain loads by Jubilees and similar locos. I then experimented with different settings of the dampers to try to find a set up which seemed to give something close to realistic performance. Ultimately, I settled on setting both the front and rear dampers at no more than 25%. I treat using any setting above that (50-100%) as a 'cheat' creating unrealistic performance. Then came the question of what is a reasonable target in terms of journey times. Most TSW routes have no steam schedules, and even on the steam routes the schedules are not realistic. The schedules on this thread are taken from real timetables, in some cases complimented by the log of a real-life run. This thread started out as a Spirit of Steam challenge but has expanded to include challenges on multiple routes, set by myself and others. This is a full list of the challenges, with a link to each: Crewe - Liverpool - Jubilee - Post 1 Liverpool - Crewe (One stop) - Jubilee - Post 28 Liverpool - Crewe (Non-Stop) - Jubilee - Post 56 Manchester Victoria - Leeds - Jubilee - Post 115 Leeds - Manchester Victoria - Jubilee - Post 160 Leeds - Stalybridge - Jubilee - Post 259 Minehead - Bishop's Lydeard - 8F - Post 184 Bishop's Lydeard - Minehead - 8F - Post 184 Bishop's Lydeard - Crowcombe - 8F - Post 358 Preston - Blackpool N - 8F - Post 197 Blackpool N - Preston - Jubilee - Post 329 Blackpool S - Preston - Jubilee - Post 459 Leicester - Derby - Jubilee - Post 214 Derby - Leicester - Jubilee - Post 439 Birmingham NS - Bromsgrove - Jubilee - Post 246 Matlock - Chinley - Jubilee - Post 290 Chinley - Ambergate - Jubilee - Post 392 Peterborough - Doncaster - Flying Scotsman / Jubilee - Post 408 Preston - Carlisle - Jubilee - Post 518 Carlisle - Preston - Jubilee - Post 539 Regular thread contributor Lamplight has built a fantastic spreadsheet containing a log of every run contained within this thread. We will continue to update it as more challenges and more accounts of your efforts to match them are posted. The spreadsheet is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OyqHC_XQz3S8AGTlDSLU-nIWsLd-QcS6icPQ8vegA5s/edit?usp=sharing It includes a short guide, links to the tab for each challenge, and each log contains a link to the relevant forum post describing it. The logs have a 'total time' recorded at the bottom, enabling easy comparisons between runs, and against the original challenge set. Also within the thread are gradient profiles (critical for steam) and posters' accounts of multiple attempts to achieve the booked time, including some great pictures. If you decide to give one of the challenges a go, we'd love to hear how you got on. Also, if you've found a real-life schedule or log over a TSW route, and would like to use it to set a challenge of your own, please go ahead, and it will be added to the list above and to the spreadsheet. Here is the first challenge - Crewe to Liverpool I checked the actual 1958 timetable and the fastest scheduled running time for Crewe - Liverpool was 50 minutes (non-stop), so I took that as my challenge: Crewe to Liverpool with a Jubilee and 10 coaches, without using more than 25% damper, in 50 minutes or less. Below is my second attempt (the first was a total mess...). Departing Crewe at 10:43 I made a cautious start, hoping to retain some boiler pressure for later in the journey. Initial acceleration (marked 1) was therefore slow, but I got the reward later on the flatish section before Weaver Junction, with sustained speeds in excess of 65mph. This brought the boiler pressure down a fair bit, but I knew I had the coasting and braking for Weaver Junction to build it back up before the climb beyond. Weaver Junction (marked 2) was where I made my biggest mistake. I didn't start to coast early enough, didn't lose enough speed, so needed too much braking for the 50mph PSR. Not getting the brake off quickly enough meant I undershot the 50mph - not by a lot, but enough to be significant at this location - and blowing the heavy braking off used up boiler pressure. The result was I began the long, steep climb beyond with less speed than I should have had and less than than optimum boiler pressure. I paid for it dearly, losing speed rapidly on the climb (marked 3), down to 30mph at the summit, with boiler pressure fairly low. Then comes the long downhill stretch through Runcorn, though. I used up what little boiler pressure I had left in getting up to 50mph, then let the gradient do the rest. I was braking through the 55mph PSR over Runcorn bridge (with rather poor compliance - marked 4) with the regulator closed and boiler pressure rising quickly as a result. At this point I knew that to have a chance of making Liverpool in the 50 minutes I needed to be more aggressive on the rising gradients to come. Once out of the PSR and on the climb I used full regulator and high cut-offs and avoided significant speed loss despite the steep rising gradients. Unfortunately the effect on boiler pressure was ruinous, and meant that by the time I was nearing Edge Hill, I was really struggling. The boiler pressure was almost gone, I was at 30% cut-off, full regulator and still losing speed rapidly (marked 5). No need to brake for the 40mph PSR - I was down to 35mph by that point anyway due to lack of steam. At this point I received my only signal check of the run with a distant remaining stubbornly at caution not far from Edge Hill. I applied the brake, then found that, with so little steam, it took an age to release. As a result, when I spotted the Home signal 'off' it was some time before I was able to begin accelerating again, exaggerating the effect of the check. I'd done enough, though, to get me into Edge Hill, and onto the steep downward gradient into Lime Street. Knowing I was tight against the schedule I made a rather hurried approach through the deep cutting - though always within line speed - and came to a stand at 11:32 - 49 mins 12 seconds after departing Crewe, and just under a minute better than my 50 minute schedule. The most satisfying thing to see, looking back on the run, was that the maximum and minimum speeds achieved at key points were quite realistic, based on the study I've made of real logs from the days of steam. My minimum speeds at summits were a bit low, but I put that down to poor management of boiler pressure on my part rather than the set-up of the loco creating unrealistic results. I'm confident I can do better - a better time, or at least a more elegant effort - and I'll post here when I've given it another go. But can you do better? I'd be interested to see how you do, and hear your experience of managing the boiler pressure using the Jubilee + 10 and the limitation I describe of no more than 25% dampers. Incidentally, if you prefer to try a run with a Runcorn stop, the fastest one-stop Crewe - Liverpool time in the 1958 timetable was 55 minutes. In the opposite direction (Liverpool - Crewe) it was scheduled 51 minutes non-stop and still 55 minutes with the Runcorn call.
One thing I meant to mention - as I stood in the platform at Lime Street and passengers alighted, the safety valves lifted for the first time since departure from Crewe. It was a pleasure to complete a run without the constant roar of the loco blowing off steam! Next time I’ll close the dampers and the firebox doors at the summit at Edge Hill and see whether I can prevent that final lifting of the safety valves too.
When I worked the Jubilee and Black 5, in the Bristol Sheffield link at Saltley 21A in the 1950/60's the front damper was never opened and just ½ or less on the rear. Once you got them wound up the speed would steadily increase and even on Standard 5, we could touch 90+mph (down grade towards Ashchurch.) TSW I find ok because each engine was different, you had to "play" around with injectors, damper never touched and the driver usually had the blower off and would open it just before shutting the regulator to prevent blow backs. Nothing is set, work out the best for the way you drive.
Thanks jetgriff, that useful to hear, and great picture! It sounds as if, if you use the dampers in a realistic way, the physics on TSW are pretty good. It’s just that if you use them in an unrealistic way (front and rear dampers fully open, all of the time) you can create dramatic over-performance. I actually had no idea how the dampers on a Jubilee were used in real life, so it’s great to hear from someone who knows.
The spirit of OS Nock lives! But seriously, I have been chundering on about the overpowered performance particularly of the Jubilee for quite some time. With both dampers on you could be driving a Class 86 there is so much power and speed. It’s only the wheels starting to unfathomably slip at high speed which inhibits things a little. Hope some updates to steam physics will be making their way into TSW4.
Thank you for this. It has really improved the experience I tried your service first and found I was pretty much following you to the letter. Slowly achieved 65mph and then brought it back nicely for the 50 limit at the junction. Even with a better start on the hill, I still only managed to claw myself over the summit at about 40mph. Like you I similarly struggled on my way towards Edge Hill to get it much above 50mph and found myself slowly winding down to about 35mph approaching Edge Hill. With the extra braking for the signal check I managed to get to the bufferstops at around 11:31 so I think you were too hard on yourself. I had a go with a Runcorn stop from Liverpool to Crewe. Staying firmly at 15mph up the hill to Edge Hill to avoid losing too much steam, then scarcely managing 25mph up the gradient after Edge Hill, it found its footing on the gentle downhill section towards Ditton and we made around 55mph before we hit the hill to Runcorn. Taking it easier earlier paid dividends climbing to Runcorn but I had slowed down too much approach the speed restriction at Ditton so struggled to regain as much pressure as I wanted at Runcorn. After sumitting at around 20mph it was easy enough to reach Crewe from there. Judging by the timings and lack of safety valves blowing off, this is clearly the way the locomotive is supposed to behave and is how ill be driving from now on. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.
Thank you for that account - very interesting - and I'm glad it was enjoyable. I'm about to write up my 3rd attempt, which sounds very similar to your first, above (you're clearly a faster learner!) I'm also planning to give a Liverpool-Crewe ago, for a different experience. I'd been wondering about how much speed to attempt to gain on the climb out of Lime Street. With the long falling gradients from Wavertree to Ditton Jn to come, I'd thought about being quite aggressive, but it would be embarrassing to get stuck on the bank after Edge Hill! That climb in the Down direction from Ditton Jn to the summit is probably the toughest on the route in either direction - steep and relentless, for over 4 miles.
Crewe - Liverpool Non-Stop - 3rd attempt Feeling that I'd made rather too cautious a start on my last attempt, I planned to use more cut-off in the early stages this time, but with the cut-off wound back to 15% the steam chest indicator was suggesting I was achieving maximum power without even using full regulator up to about 40mph. I wonder how accurate that is? Some more experimentation to be done here. The resulting acceleration, from opening the regulator more slowly, was pretty much the same as on the previous run, but steam pressure was maintained better. It meant I achieved slightly higher speeds in the section between Winsford and Acton Bridge, touching 69mph in the dip before Hartford. This time, I shut off earlier, giving more time for steam pressure to recover, and braked earlier and lighter for Weaver Jn. The result was that I hit the 50mph PSR dead on, with the brake fully off and the safety valves lifting - ideal for the climb to come. The result was that I reached the summit at 33 mph - compared to just under 30mph on the first run - and with more pressure to spare. In truth, I think I could have used more cut-off on the climb and got over the summit faster still, because after the drift down to Runcorn and onto the bridge, the safety valves were lifting again. My compliance with the 55mph PSR was better this time - I was in good shape with no need to rush - and, mindful of my experience of running out of steam by Wavertree on the previous run, I was cautious on the first part of the climb, passing the mini-summit at Speke at 35mph, compared to 38mph on the previous run. The difference, though, was that steam pressure was much higher, and as a result the second part of the climb (with the steep section after Mossley Hill) was far better, meaning that I had to close the regulator approaching the summit to comply with the 40mph PSR at Wavertree. Remember - at that point on the previous run I'd been down to 35mph with the regulator wide open and 30% cut-off, with steam all-but gone. From there I knew it was job done. I closed the dampers and fire-box door (although the fireman immediately re-opened it, firing ferociously all the way to Lime Street), negotiated the inevitable signal check with aplomb (I hate the way TSW gives you the same signal checks every time you drive a given schedule...) and coasted gently through Edge Hill and down the bank with time to spare, the safety valves merrily blasting BR's hard-earned profits into the blue Lancashire skies. Arrival at 11:30:51 - 2 mins 9 secs early - gave an overall time of 47 mins 51 secs. This was actually only 1 min 11 secs faster than my previous run, but it would have been quicker still were it not for the fact that I took it easy from Edge Hill, knowing I was running early. If my fireman wasn't insane, this third run would have been completed with far less coal than the second. Boiler pressure was always under control, and the P-Way would be happier with my speed limit compliance too. A big improvement all around. I still fancy another go, to see whether I can get those minimum speeds at the summits up a bit further, but I think I'll give the Up direction a try first.
Gradients are, of course, much more critical when driving steam trains, especially when you have a more realistic limitation on available boiler pressure. I find these useful in visualising the route and planning ahead. Ian Allan - Gradients of the British Mainline Railways
I tried the 11:40 from Lime Street to Crewe. (11:37 to Euston in the timetable selection) I did this in the rain since it was raining outside but I don't belive it made much difference apart from starting a little gentler. Not my best start but leaving at 11:40, I hit the gradient at 10mph coming out if Lime Street and managed to attain 15mph by Edge Hill. Although I could get to 25mph before the second gradient up to the junction, I was down to 20mph and only 130lb's in the boiler once at the summit. I quickly gained speed on the downhill towards Ditton and basically held it at 50mph from West Allerton to allow the pressure to build before the climb to Runcorn. It was hard to maintain 50-45mph and build up some decent pressure but I knew I'd need it and the chance to build up at Runcorn would be short. I chose to ignore the distant signal as it appears to be a bug. Everything was clear ahead. Hit the central viaduct at 40mph after a good climb then into Runcorn at 12:04. It was tough going out of Runcorn even with full pressure and I could only keep it at 15mph with about 150lb's. Just managed to scrape 19mph at the summit then it was a case of letting gravity do the work. I wanted full pressure at the bottom and there's no point slamming on the breaks for the PSR so I kept it around 55mph once it got there. On the WCML, the gentle uphill meant I was staying at around 50-55mph most of the way. Stopped at Crewe at 12:40 exactly. This is 5 minutes later than the real timetable of 55 mins so I clearly have some work to do. Unfortunately it then crashed so I couldn't share the speed chart. Until we get full control over the fire and water I doubt whether we can truly get the best out of them in a realistic fashion.
It's amazing how this changes the driving experience. Suddenly you have to think well ahead like the real driver and fireman would. After most of these runs I realised I had done a very poor job of checking any signals as i was so focused on the pressure gauges and realised it must have taken massive amounts of concentration in real life.
I’m the same. With colour lights viewed from the cab of a diesel or electric loco (with no boiler in the way!) and AWS blaring away, I’m confident I’m reacting to every signal, but I can’t honestly say the same with steam. The view is so restricted and there’s so much else to concentrate on, I’m certain I miss the odd distant signal. It’s astonishing that there weren’t more accidents in those days as a result of Drivers missing signals. I think the key was very extensive route knowledge - they really did know exactly where every single distant signal was, so would look out for it specifically - including crossing the cab or asking the fireman to look for the distant if it was first sighted from the right -hand side of the loco. Edit - imagine driving in thick fog with no HUD to help you out, no AWS, and only the tiny oil light of a semaphore signal to spot. I’d be completely and hopelessly lost within minutes of departure.
So I have just done the same 10:43 Crewe departure and it is the best service I have done in a steam loco so far. I started off rather quickly from Crewe and hit the 25mph (I think) PSR quickly, I then let her go with the cut off at about 17% and regulator at 60 or 70 odd and after the initial drop maintaining approximately 175PSI across this whole stretch, which took me up to 70 mph by the time of shutting off to coast down to Weaver's 50mph PSR. After having the knowledge of the mistake made on here I shut off with plenty of time meaning I just had to break for the last few mph which was no strain or loss and so I hit the start of the climb at 48mph and 220PSI (just avoiding the safeties). The climb really took a toll on both speed and pressure, dropping to 32mph and 150PSI at the summit respectively. I then took advantage of the downhill section into Runcorn which allowed me to use very little pressure to take the train up to 54mph and 220 PSI when going through the station. I then applied a small amount of braking to ensure I didn't creep over 55 and stayed around the 53-54mph mark, but by this time the safeties had started to blow. I then continued steadily up to Mossley hill which I passed at 48mph with 170 PSI in the boiler (by this point I had stop shovelling coal in but I suspect that was the cause of another problem which I'll come to later). I then decided to carry on running down the pressure to stop the safeties blasting. As I came round to Edge hill I met the 40mph PSR at 35mph with minimal braking but then required a slightly sterner braking force to meet the 20mph PSR (which I did). As I passed through the station I was doing 18mph and had 150PSI, and so I hit the steep downhill gradient where I kept my speed at no more than 20 mph in readiness for the 15mph PSR before Lime Street which I met with no issues but did need brakes. I then slowly guided the train to a smooth stop just in front of the buffers at 11:30 and the the safeties started to go off again. I opened the doors and was then greeted with a service failure which I now guess is due to me shutting the firebox when I did. Although I may have said something very similar to 'What a load of mucking bullocks' I still felt and feel like it was a really good run which I enjoyed muchly, so this will certainly be how I handle kettles going forward. Thanks for sharing this with us.
Sounds like you pretty much nailed it first time. I concur it adds another dimension to the steam driving experience and I've really enjoyed it. I'd be interested in more real timings for this route, perhaps with a stopper or a freight.
Yes I am going to have a delve through some bits and see if I can find any of the timings for the Peak Forest route which is my personal favourite out of the steam routes (even though PFR should have been a route with just as many if not more diesels than steam).
The timetable is at the below link. It’s a public timetable rather than a WTT so there’s no freight, but it provides real times for a variety of passenger trains, from the right era. https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=1987099b-01c5-47f7-a8dd-ba173774ceb5 Table 96 is the one.
So far so good, just passed Weaver Jn 19 mins after departing Crewe. Fairly modest top speed around 70 MPH between Winsford and Hartford. Running with 20% cutoff and between 20 and 30% regulator which definitely seems more realistic. Will resume tomorrow and see how I get on with the section to Runcorn. But yes I have to conclude, pegging dampers at 25% and managing steam consumption accordingly seems much more realistic than how the locos have been set up. This will be an exercise to repeat with the 8F, 4F and FS when we get it. I also have a suspicion when you first start the fire is "cold" and it takes several minutes to get white hot. In reality, the loco has just worked in from Euston and he fire is going to be at optimum temperature already.
You're a saviour for that mate! I was going to dedicate tomorrow to finding old Peak Forest timetables, but instead I'll be using them. I must agree this is one of the best threads on the forum.
Interesting use of a low % of the regulator. I run mostly with full (or almost full) regulator, and lower cut-offs, but it sounds as if the results are similar, at least in terms of speed - I got 69mph maximum between Winford and Hartford on my last run. Looking forward to hearing how you get on over the remainder of the journey.
Really looking forward to the upcoming A3. It'll be very interesting seeing the performance of the Scotsman on Crewe- Liverpool, and also the Jubilee on ECML. We can really channel the spirit of O S Nock then. The Scotsman should be a fair bit more powerful, and a lot speedier. In their final form with Kylchap chimneys (which the Scotsman has), they could rival the A4s. Obviously I'll be doing lots of runs down Stoke Bank. Flying Scotsman was still an A1 when it reached 100mph down Stoke Bank, then Papyrus, an early A3, smashed that and reached 108. I reckon we could reach the mid 110s in the Scotsman, assuming the performance in the game is realistic enough. Getting to 120 would be too much I think. Either way, I can't wait to get my hands on the loco.
That’s interesting. I will have to do a subsequent run using that method. I won’t be back on the game until after tea time but will report in! Of course thinking about it there are still some variables we have little or no control over. You daren’t close the firebox door to stop the fireman as there is no pre warning the scenario will fail due to low/cold fire. More critically there is no effect from water being added to the boiler which we can’t see happening, if it is indeed happening at all. But certainly, based on experience in MSTS and TSC, that is a sure fire way to kill the boiler pressure if you time it wrong.
Liverpool - Crewe with Runcorn call - 1st attempt Like a.paice above, I attempted the 11:40 out of Lime Street. Despite the requirement for an unseemly dash to the back of the train to uncouple the incoming loco (my union tells me a shunter's meant to do that) we started on time at 11:40. The get-away wasn't the best (I think I used too little cut-off, hoping to save steam) but I eventually got speed up to 15mph on the climb, and held it there. It took 7 minutes to get through Edge Hill, which feels like a long time, but boiler pressure wasn't too low, and the second part of the climb and acceleration on the falling gradients beyond was pretty good. I was doing 60mph through Hailbank, and required a touch of the brakes for the 55mph PSR at Ditton Jn (as a.paice did, I ignored the cautionary aspect here as a bug). Relying on the station call at Runcorn to recover boiler pressure, I made an aggressive attack of the climb to the Runcorn Bridge, crossing the bridge itself at 41mph, and braking into the station, arriving at 12:03 - a minute earlier than a.paice's run - and feeling pretty happy with myself. It didn't take me long of sitting in Runcorn station staring at the boiler pressure needle - willing it upwards - to realise I'd got it terribly wrong. My fast running before Ditton Jn and aggressive climb to the bridge had used up too much steam, and when I got the right-away I was still far short of full pressure. With gloomy resignation I released the brakes, opened the regulator, and settled in for a slog through Halton Jn to the summit. For much of the way I could not get above 15mph - full regulator and 22% cut-off, desperately trying to gain some speed while retaining enough pressure not to come to a humiliating stand short of the summit. Eventually the easing of the gradient in the final stages of the climb allowed me to reach 20mph over the summit itself, but virtually out of steam and reliant largely on gravity to accelerate down the other side, I began to make up my excuses for the relieving Driver at Crewe. Once up to 55mph I closed the regulator - keen not to repeat my mistake at Ditton Jn by having to brake for Weaver Jn. On the steep falling gradients towards the Junction itself speed crept up to 58mph, and I admit I could see that I was going to go through the 55mph points a touch over the limit. Unable to stand the pain of a brake application at this point - wasting crucial speed and pressure - I let it happen, and we went over the points at 57mph. I opened up, but even after coasting for some time, pressure wasn't fully recovered from the climb out of Runcorn, and running from there to Crewe was poor. Most running was around 50mph - a little above in the early stages, and a little below nearer Crewe, and a poor run was summed up by over-cooking the braking slightly for the 20mph PSR. We came to a stand in Crewe at 12:39:20 - a time of 59mins 20 secs - just over 4 minutes behind schedule, with no excuses to be made. On the plus side, there's definitely some time to be had - whether 4 mins 20 secs of it I'm not sure, but I'm going to enjoy finding out - and if anyone else get closer to that 55 min one-stop Up direction schedule (or even if you don't!), I'd love to hear about it. The Up run does seem to be significantly tougher than the Down run. If the numbers I found are accurate (Crewe station an altitude of 56 metres, Lime St station an altitude of 28 metres) the Up run requires a climb of 28 metres overall (as opposed to a descent of the same in the opposite direction) and it certainly feels like it. The starts from both Lime St and Runcorn being followed by long, steep uphill gradients is a big factor as well. We need to give ourselves a little slack here, and recognise that the 55 min one-stop schedule is probably timed for a 'Scot' or a 'Coronation', and to achieve it with a Jubilee would be a fine effort - but I think my 59 mins 20 secs is beatable.
Okay finished my run. Game recorded as 53 minutes but the net time was 1043 - 1132 so I'm declaring 49 minutes. Very briefly... After Weaver Junction on the 1 in 100 pressure was dropping rapidly, down to 170psi when I got over the summit at 30 MPH. From there to Runcorn recovered to around 50 MPH on the slight 1 in 300 (ish) climb with boiler pressure back to 175 PSI. Downhill through Runcorn boiler fully recovered and blowing off, however on the undulating section from Ditton to Mossley Hill could not get anywhere near the 70 MPH line speed and was holding around 50 MPH. Dampers closed just before Edge Hill with light steam to get me through the station with a cautious descent of the bank into Lime Street - did hit 16 MPH briefly on the 15 MPH PSR but only for a few seconds. So overall quite impressed and hope DTG are monitoring this thread to look how steam physics need to be tweaked, as in nerfed.
Interesting stuff, Vern. It looks as if you did the same as me and reduced the speed slightly too much for Weaver Jn, which then cost you all the way up the bank beyond. However you seemed to achieve the fastest speeds we've seen so far around Hartford, and commendable precision and efficiency with a 1 min early arrival. Excellent run.
I would be interested to find out what the minimum operational pressure would be for a Jubilee before the loco stalls out, or more likely there is insufficient steam to keep the small ejector working and maintain vacuum and whether this is simulated. I've now started a freight run on PFR with the 8F attempting to use the same principle - no more than 25% on both dampers. Of course it's not such a precision operation with freight as 1. You're running more slowly, certainly should not be doing more than 45 MPH and 2. There is no schedule per se, although that is not strictly correct in the simulation as most longer distance freight was in the WTT and had sectional running times same as passenger services. So far so good, anyway.
Liverpool - Crewe with Runcorn call - 2nd attempt I did this one on the 22:10 Lime St - Euston. I couldn't really recommend it, as there is almost no lighting on the route, so you're forced to drive almost entirely using the HUD, which isn't very satisfying. There are a few pretty effects with the signal lamps twinkling in the darkness though, so it's not all bad. In terms of running, it's one stop at Runcorn just the same as the 11:40, and exactly the same signal aspects too, so it's directly comparable. My acceleration out of Lime St was much better than on the previous run. I got it straight up to 17mph and held it there for the climb to Edge Hill, without boiler pressure dropping too low. As a result I passed Edge Hill in 6 minutes - a minute quicker than on the last run. On the descent through Mossley Hill the loco ran beautifully, touching 58mph at Allerton and then, on the second part of the descent, 59mph at Allerton. At that point I still had plenty of steam, and it really felt as though I could have achieved higher speeds, but I resisted, determined to avoid the mistake I'd made last time of departing Runcorn with pressure too low. For that reason I was relatively cautious over the bridge and into Runcorn. Spotting the station in the darkness played a bit of a part here too. In the end I was probably a little too cautious on this section, because at Runcorn the safety valves were lifting well before 'the off'. I then had an odd experience where the passenger loading timer (the yellow circle) slowed and stopped just before the end. I'd never seen this before. I closed and then re-opened the doors, and it started creeping forward again - much more slowly than usual - and eventually completed the circle and allowed me to depart, but it gave me a 2 minute stop rather than the usual 1 minute. I then made things worse with a messy start with the loco slipping badly, requiring me to close and re-open the regulator, before she dug in and we began the climb. Boiler pressure was still high, however, and the long, steep section of the climb was managed at 17mph (compared to 15mph on the previous run) and the summit passed at 25mph (compared to 20mph on the previous run). Again, I went through Weaver Jn a touch too fast (it's the last time, I promise!) but this time with boiler pressure almost up to the maximum, and this allowed for higher speeds between there and Crewe. In the early stages I ran with 89% regulator and 15% cut-off and this kept boiler pressure quite high and speeds pretty good too - including a maximum of 57mph in the slight dip after Hartford. After that I started to try to take advantage of the spare steam, opening regulator to 100%, and very slowly increasing the cut-off over the reminder of the distance to Crewe. Boiler pressure fell significantly, but speed was maintained rather better than on the previous run, only dropping just below 50mph on the final section. Annoyingly, feeling I was on for a good time, I left the braking for Crewe a touch too late, had to brake too hard and undershot the 20mph PSR by the time I got the brake off. This made for a slow run into the platform, and cost me time. Arrival at Crewe was at 23:07:58 - a time of 57 mins 58 secs from Lime St (2 mins 58 secs late). I'd lost a minute with the odd goings on at Runcorn, and cost myself about 30 seconds by messing up the braking for the 20mph PSR at Crewe. However, I probably have to give that 30 seconds back for the slightly excessive speed through Weaver Jn, so the run to me suggests that 57 mins is achievable with all line speeds complied with. I also had safety valves lifting at Ditton and Runcorn, indicating that I can be slightly more aggressive on the first half of the run than I was - so I'm confident there's still a little more time to find.
I must add although I haven't tried this it really is a fascinating read and you really start to get a sense of how different drivers would do different techniques etc which may save a little time here and there. Keep up the posts guys really interesting reads!
The one thing I have noticed is that dropping cutoff from even 20% to 15% seems to make a massive difference in steam consumption, more than you might reasonably expect. And also driving steam in MSTS or TSC, don’t think I’ve ever had the cut off wound back that far to get an economical power cruise - 25 to 30% more likely. Anyhow after finishing my freight run on PFR I’ve started a stopper between Liverpool and Runcorn. The challenge is not so great here as only Load 5 and the frequent station stops give some scope to recover boiler pressure. The counterpoint is that you really need to rag it out of the station on 50% cut off to even try and keep what look more like EMU than steam timings. So the boiler pressure does drop quite quickly.
Well, my experience was that it gave the loco capabilities beyond those of the real thing (but not as extreme as using 100%) but steam loco performance is a difficult thing to reproduce as there as so many variables and even in real life every loco was different. Stating 25% front and rear appears to give the most realistic results, but is mainly an attempt to give us a common position to allow us to compare runs and different driving techniques. It’s fine, of course, to use any position of the dampers you like, but be aware that you’ll get a significant performance boost from anything above 25%.
Liverpool - Crewe with Runcorn call - 3rd attempt This time I was on the 14:55 from Liverpool Lime St - Crewe. We departed Lime St at 14:55:28 and made a good, sure-footed start, quickly up to the 15mph line speed, then holding speed up the bank to Edge Hill which was passed at 15:00:42 - a good time, but I was already feeling that I was having to use more steam than I wanted to in order to achieve it, and as a result running on the next section was less impressive. After the second part of the climb, speed was 22mph at the summit (pretty much the same as previous runs), but the 58/59 achieved at Allerton and Halebank on the last run never felt within reach, as we struggled even to get speed up to 55 before Ditton Jn. Speed over Runcorn Bridge was 38mph - compared to 41mph and 40mph on my previous two runs - but braking for Runcorn was good, recovering a few seconds and getting us into Runcorn at 14:17:30 - a 22 minute running time from Lime Street, which (slightly to my surprise, as it had felt like a struggle) was the best I'd achieved to date. By departure from Runcorn - at 14:18:32 - boiler pressure was just a little short of the maximum. We made another good start, and climbed the bank with speed around 17mph, up to 21mph by the summit - which was fairly typical. I was determined this time to recover the boiler pressure fully on the descent to Weaver Jn, so, using low cut-offs and regulator settings, acceleration was quite slow, and I closed the regulator entirely at 51mph, allowing the gradient to do the rest of the work. It still brought me up to 57mph before the 55mph PSR, so (remembering my promise!) I had to brake to ensure full compliance, before opening the regulator for the long last stretch to Crewe, with boiler pressure again just short of the maximum. I decided to experiment with a different technique for this section. Rather than allowing the boiler pressure to blead away gradually as I normally do, I decided to do whatever it took to keep boiler pressure high for the first half of the distance to Crewe, then give it everything on the second section. This involved running initially at 15% cut-off and just 48% regulator (any higher and the boiler pressure fell). I thought speed would drop away painfully quickly, but in fact the high boiler pressure meant power output was still adequate, and the 59mph achieved in the dip after Hartford was my best yet. I maintained these low cut-off and regulator positions until Winsford, and then, 7 miles from Crewe, gave it everything I had. Usually at this point boiler pressure is low, the rising gradient bites horribly into the speed, and on the levels beyond there's nothing left to recover it. This time, though, with boiler pressure high, I fully opened the regulator, and kept winding up the cut-off to whatever it took to maintain speed (28% at one point). As a result we maintained a minimum of 52mph up the bank, got up to 54mph on the level section beyond, and held it there, right up to the point where I braked for Crewe. By this point, the effort had all but destroyed the boiler pressure - leaving just enough to be able to release the brakes and hit the 20mph to coast into Crewe. Arrival was at 15:51:04 - an overall time of 55 mins 36 seconds - just 36 seconds down on schedule. I remain convinced this can be done in the 55 minute schedule. This run wasn't perfect, and there is certainly more time to be found. In a way it felt odd that the time achieved to Runcorn was my best yet, as running did not feel nearly as good as on my second run, on which I achieved higher speeds on the descent to Ditton Jn, and the safety valves lifted at Runcorn. However, the lesson may be that maximising the lowest speeds saves more time than maximising the highest speeds, and fast running can be sacrificed for better climbs. Also, the safety valves lifting at Runcorn on the second run necessarily indicates a wastage of steam which I could have used to achieve a faster time. I feel as if I benefited from the approach taken, on this third run, to the section from Weaver Junction to Crewe, and sacrificing a little speed early in each section may be worthwhile to maintain pressure for a final onslaught before the station or descent which will allow recovery of the boiler. Next time I'll try to carry that lesson to other parts of the run.
Well you've done it. I think you've cracked the secret to the Weaver Junction to Crewe section. I have tried this run 3 times using various methods with various levels of success which I will write up tomorrow. The key seems to be as you say, spend a bit of steam getting up to speed before a hill, once on the hill don't fight it but just maintain speed and thus keep the steam pressure at a useful level. Then on the flat with decent pressure and a low cutoff you are flying along!
Liverpool - Crewe with Runcorn call. 14:45 Lime St - Crewe 1st My first attempt started well. With a brisk start I used a bit of steam to get me to 15mph then focused on holding it there with a low cut-off to edge hill. 42 on the regulator and 34 on the reverser saw me still at 13mph by Edge hill, passing through at around 15:00:30 Continuing with the cut-off at around 25, I hit the next gradient at around 25mph and the summit at around 19mph with steam to spare. The extra steam meant I could quickly accelerate and hit 50mph by West Allerton with a freight running parallel and soon falling behind. All was going well and I was creeping up to 59mph passing Halebank when disaster struck. I braked too heavily for the Dutton Junction speed restriction and my speed dropped to almost 40mph at the bottom of the climb to Runcorn. I knew that was it for this attempt but I continued on so I could practice the Weaver Junction to Crewe section and found similar great success with the method of using a low cut off to conserve steam. I arrived into Crewe at 15:53, still a nice time but not good enough. 2nd On my second attempt I experimented with higher cut-offs to try to gain some time on the climbs with a bit of extra speed. This proved to be a complete folly. Climbing to Edge Hill I was struggling to keep the speed above 10mph due to me using too much steam and once on the slope towards Ditton Junction, it took me a lot longer to achieve 50mph. So much longer in fact that I didn’t pass the freight train until after Allerton, at which point the signaller had prioritised it over me at Ditton Junction where I was brought to a stand by a red signal. Another attempt over. 3rd I decided to revert to my original technique for the 3rd attempt and it paid off. Easily keeping 15-13mph up to Edge Hill with 42 on the regulator and 34 on the reverser, I passed Edge Hill with my best time of 15:00:21. Creeping back up to 25mph, I crested the next hill at 19mph, well ahead of the freight train this time. The freight train never caught up as I was bouncing along now. Back up to 50mph by West Allerton then dragging it kicking and screaming up to 65mph by Halebank. Slowing down for Ditton Junction, I went easy on the brakes this time to avoid repeating my mistake but still released a little too late so I was a few mph under the limit. My full head of steam ensured I could hit Runcorn viaduct at 41mph and I pulled into Runcorn nicely, stopping at 15:16:22. A good time. Climbing out from Runcorn, I struggled to get much over 16mph and summited at only 19mph so I ensured I made up for it on the downhill, accelerating as fast as possible then coasting at around 50mph to build up full pressure before Weaver Junction. A touch of brake was all that was needed as I only made it to 57mph coasting but the full pressure paid dividends on the next section. I kept steady, drifting between 50mph and 54mph as the gradients changed but with a low cut-off at 15, there was no shortage of pressure and on the final approach to crew I managed to hit the peak of 59mph, tantalising close to 60mph but alas I had to begin braking for the 20mph PSR. A few seconds longer and it would of hit 60mph I’m sure. I was a little too early for the 20mph PSR but I didn’t want to risk tarnishing the run by speeding and I glided into Crewe, stopping at 15:50:00 exactly. 1 minute ahead of schedule. I knew the game would crash once I closed the doors as it always does which is why I took the trouble to take pictures as you are unable to view my overview at the end.
Fantastic effort, well done. You take the crown for the first to achieve the Up timing with one stop! It’s really interesting the way you sacrificed speed for boiler pressure on the climbs out of Lime St and Runcorn. Both must have cost you quite a chunk of time compared to my attempts, but you obviously then used that steam to great effect to get the time back, and more, on the faster sections which followed. 65mph at Halebank is a tremendous effort - a clear 6 mph faster than I’ve ever achieved. Interesting, too, that your fastest speed between Weaver Jn and Crewe was on the final flat section before Crewe, whereas mine was much earlier, near Hartford. Again, your tactic of preserving steam for the later section appears to have paid off. Of course, this makes me all the more determined to match your effort and achieve the 55 mins myself! It’s sad that there doesn’t appear to be a non-stop Up run so that we can try to achieve the 51 mins real-life schedule. There is the 55 min down schedule with a Runcorn call though, which nobody has attempted yet. Instinctively I’d imagine it would be easier than the Up, but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating…
I have been trying to Up but just can't seem to beat 57 or I get service failure so I haven't really been taking notes. I may have another crack at it tonight if I get a chance.
On all these I've just left the fireman hard at work constantly. Until we get an actual visualisation of the fire its hard to tell if they have simulated being able to smother the fire by shovelling too much.
Thank you. It's all thanks to your technique of keeping the pressure high at all costs after Weaver Junction. I never could manage to do well on that section. I will definitely try a Down service with a stop and keep looking for a non-stop Up run.
Liverpool - Crewe with Runcorn call - 4th attempt Inspired by the successful attempt of Driver a.paice I prepared the loco for the 14:55 Liverpool Lime St - Euston with renewed optimism that the notorious 55 min schedule to Crewe was achievable after all. We departed at 14:55:42 and made a steady start, up to 17mph and held speed up the bank, without losing too much boiler pressure. We passed through Edge Hill in 4 min 45 secs (30 seconds quicker than my previous attempt) and reached 32mph on the flat section afterwards, dropping back to 24mph on the next climb (both speeds 2 mph quicker than the previous run). Despite the quicker start, boiler pressure was high, and acceleration down grade towards Ditton Jn was good. We touched 59mph through Allerton and 64mph at Halebank. I was sorely tempted to keep it open to match a.paice's 65mph, but I held my discipline, closed the regulator and coasted to build a little boiler pressure before braking for Ditton Jn. Once through the junction I opened up for the climb to the bridge, which we crossed at 40mph and braked into Runcorn where we arrived in 20 mins 40 secs from Lime St - 1 min 38 secs quicker than my previous attempt. By departure time we were still a little short of full boiler pressure, so made a slightly careful start. For much of the climb we were at 62% regulator and 22% cut-off. Speed was 16mph, rising to 20mph by the end of the steepest (1:115) section of the climb and 24mph at the summit. We accelerated quickly down the other side and I closed the regulator at 50mph to avoid the need for excessive braking for Weaver Jn and to build boiler pressure for the flatter section beyond. As we descended from Sutton Weaver the rain set in, and it was fortunate it hadn't come earlier, as it would have made the start from Runcorn much trickier. As it was, it barely affected the remainder of the run. Only a slight touch of the brakes was needed for the 55mph at Weaver Jn, and I then opened up to 43% regulator, with 15% cut-off. This held boiler pressure steady, just short of the maximum, and there I left it for the next 9 miles. Speed was mostly around 55mph, with a maximum of 59mph in the dip after Hartford. Once through Winsford, wanting to leave nothing on the table, I fully opened the regulator and gradually eased out the cut-off, ultimately to 29%, as we destroyed the boiler pressure with one last effort. After flattening the final climb we reached a maximum of 58mph on the levels before Crewe. Braking for the 20mph was good, and we coasted into the platform, coming to a stand at 15:49:01 - a running time of 53 mins 19 secs (1 min 41 secs better than schedule). It's runs like this which almost make me wonder whether there's some random element in the steaming of DTG's steam locos. I know the Class 158 has a degree of randomisation of performance, but I've never heard mention of the same applying to any DTG locos and I feel sure it would have been spoken about. I suspect the reality is it's just the effects of different regulator and cut-off settings, but when I look at that first climb out of Lime St, I was able to achieve better time and speeds than on previous runs, yet still maintain a healthier boiler pressure. It's incredibly satisfying when it all comes together and you feel the benefit of all that experimentation (mine, and others of you I've learnt from). The ride from Edge Hill and the 60mph+ before Ditton Jn was some of the most enjoyable running I've had on TSW. The speeds may have been unremarkable compared to modern traction, but it really felt earned, and a far cry from driving a modern EMU.
Wow, you've knocked it out of the park! Well done. I cannot match your climbing ability. I'm often too scared to adjust my controls once I've found something that holds the speed on the gradients for fear of making it worse. I agree that every run feels a little different with the Jubilee but as always with DTG I don't know if it's a design choice or bug. I'm convinced you can get better performance by manipulating the fire but until we have it on the hud we have no idea what we are dealing with.
Another challenge yesterday evening. Peak Forest, semi fast service from Chinley to Matlock, Jubilee and Load 7. Used the usual parameters of no more than 25% dampers. Almost immediately you are climbing the gradient of 1 in 90 to 1 in 100 apart from a brief respite at Chinley all the way to Peak Forest. Eventuality settled in at 20% cutoff and 60% regulator which kept boiler pressure around 180psi. However could not get speed above 25 MPH and it fell back to 22MPH in Dove Holes Tunnel. At that point with the summit about half a mile away, I gave it the beans… Surprisingly I was only about 3 minutes late at Millers Dale and from there to Matlock there are no long sustained gradients so things become a bit easier. Give it a try!
While I haven’t formally joined your challenges, I was tempted to try my hand today. I know next to nothing about operating kettles but the physics in TSW do seem off to me. I just put the dampers to 25% while moving and the blower to 100% when stopped or shutting off the regulator. I actually tried the reverse: semi-fast Matlock-Chinley, which means I was essentially fighting a gradient from the get-go all the way to Peak Forest. Managing the boiler pressure was very hard. I did my best to keep it between 150-200psi but usually fell back to 140-150psi, which seemed to do the trick mostly. Cut-off was usually all the way back to 15-20% with regulator anything between 15-60% depending on available steam. Don’t think I did too badly given my limited knowledge and the uphill battle. 7min late to Millers Dale and 10min late to Chinley. Anyways, it was both an enjoyable and very engaging run
Really interesting accounts, both. Has anyone had a look at the real life Peak Forest timetables to see how your runs compare? I really am going to have to buy Peak Forest. I’ve always been put off by the steam physics, but now…. The next sale will be the one, I think.
