The Downfall Of Trainsim World For Me. I'm Certainly Not Intrested In A 3rd Attempt To Get It Right.

And luckily Matt Peddlesden appreciates the difference between reality (paid train drivers with contracted hours; a career) and TSW (entertainment product, regardless of the category we personally apply to it, used within a person's recreational time, which may be extremely limited and/or unexpectedly interrupted).

 

That's all good and I am not saying that nobody uses it. I'm just saying that I personally never needed to use it

 

Once you start viewing each TSW release as a new major version of the same software, it starts to make more sense. With each major version, DTG can introduce breaking changes and introduce major changes. From the point of organization and marketing, it is a new game. But effectively TSW 3 has the same code base as TSW 2 (where TSW2 is now a branch that is no longer developed).

The biggest issue of DTG is one of communication: they repeatedly step into problems of naivety. How can you start a marketing campaign for a game and NOT have all involved devs with streams test their setups thoroug hly in advance? DTG as a whole might have multi-million income but DTG does more than trains. My biggest problem with DTG is not with the actual progress but the communication about it. Whenever marketing becomes involved, it results in backlash.

They could have brought the new features to TSW2 with the info that all previously released routes will not receive upgrades to the new features.

 

Fooled once with TSW, fooled twice with TSW2, fooled thrice with TSW3?

No, I am not going to spend the full asking price on another incarnation of 'the future of trainsimming' when there are still so many things fundamentally wrong with the game:
trees are still popping, shadows, draw distance, sound occlusion, physics, operations, UI, no editor to create your own formations, paths and schedules ...
Too many broken promises, too many unfulfilled 'features', too many bugs carried forwards and never resolved ...
Too little actual gameplay variety, purpose, challenge ...
Even implementing a proper Save Game, a single little slot, is already too complicated?
A certain attitude by DTG and its subcontractors ...

Come Christmas, there will be actual hands-on reviews, discounts and perhaps a glimpse of whether DTG is capable and willing to deliver what it promised 5 years ago.

I'll make up my mind then.

 

This.

 

They're going to have to start churning out routes and route extensions to keep it interesting. I can't afford to buy stuff that I have only a passing interest in, so if the next UK route is Southern again or 1980s diesel again I'll be giving it a miss. We're going to have to do better than 2 new UK routes per year from DTG and 1 from Rivet to keep the interest going in TSW3.
TSC routes still sell well because there's a huge constituency that prefer a good choice of routes all with a variety of rolling stock. TSW would sell more base packages if there were some good freeware routes out there. No editor frankly means TSW will never outdo TSC in the gaming chart.

 

With the breathtaking news on how much the UK energy cap is being raised (again) then probably also in January, I think a lot of people are going to be thinking hard about splashing £25 on a mediocre route that does not have any special appeal to them. A 70's or early 80's set route is my preferred era but I actually do think they should look at something early 90's - post Sprinter but still pre-privatisation which will avoid the licensing issues of doing a current day route.

And for all I've sort of been enjoying running the BML while testing the saved game, any Southern route is going to either have to be retro or something completely different from what we currently have.

 

Well, if that were true, we would have the save function in TSW3 from launch.

 

I personally knew the smoke was clearing when updates for tsw2 are being released for a newer version of the game with a yet to be confirmed release for the second.


Anytime these things we’ve already paid for (bakerloos magic timetable) get mentioned it’s silence or “we’re working on it”

The reality is the below accompanied by , if you want it faster buy our new “route pack” to unlock it as we’ll probably not bother releasing it for tsw2 where you’ve already paid.

 

I also enjoy BML, a very well made route let down by uninteresting trains.

The next UK route cannot be modern with those toy trains. It needs to be like the TSC version of BML, set back a couple of generations, with slam doors, loco hauled services and freight, preferably someplace other than London to wherever. I seem to recall on my last visit to the UK, that there were some quite large cities outside of London.

I have often wondered if TSC's and TSW's UK routes would be geographically different, if DTG were located further north, say, in Birmingham or Manchester.

 

The 90s seems to be unpopular with the powers that be, one route the West Cornwall which I wont touch with a barge pole. In N gauge world Farish produced a run of Mk2s in Regional Railways they flew out but no where near enough demand.

I mentioned already why I wont go near TSW3 but I know full well if the route, traction and era was right they may have my money on day one. The problem is they only do one or two routes a a year so may well never see a West Highland or equivalent in my era.

 

What, like Glasgow, Liverpool, Truro, Leeds, Manchester? Wouldn’t these be good in TSW?

 

How long before they do the whole EA thing and a paid for update every year.

 

It's already started back when TSW2 was released, they'll now release a new TSW game every 2 years, where you have to pay to get bug fixes and improvements that should have been in the previous versions lol.

 

TSW 3 does not feature enough new stuff to be considered a new game. It should of been a free update for TSW2 players.
The new routes should of been DLC, and as for new games attract new players... people who would play train sim world already know what train sim world is.

 

2Martens is right.
Their biggest problem is communications which leads to fevered speculation.

Take the recent streams.
There is an announcement that streams are suspended with no explanation.
On Discord at least they explained why.
Simple, but the official forums uninformative.
Another few seconds is all that it would have taken, to add that the streams were unsatisfactory and remedial action was underway.

When you look through the forum posts, those made by members of the team are few and far between.
Very little real engagement.

I will be buying the new edition.
Incremental improvements are always welcome, even if there are no major changes.
Plus I want the improved Sehs.

 

I want to see you working on something very hard, but someone saying you shouldn't be paid for that.

It IS! There are the country-packs where you literally just buy one of the three routes + like 5 quids for a completely overhauled lighting system, changed weather, new UI etc etc etc. If you want to, you don't have to pay more than for one route. And you literally get the SEH-Expansion for free if you own SEHS on TSW2. Same thing for the overhauled SoS route. Get your facts right.

 

The main complaint here is from SEHS and SoS owners who want the two new routes. They have to either pay £60 to get the US and german routes individually, OR if they own both SoS and SEHS pay £40 to get them in the standard edition, where they are also paying for a bundle which includes SEHS as part of the price, OR if they already own SEHS and don't own SoS, pay £50 for a bundle which includes SEHS as part of the price. Either way, in all those instances, the existing SEHS owners pay an additional price for SEHS. The only way you don't is if you only want either the German or US route and nothing else.

As a consequence, saying the SEHS overhaul is "free" to existing owners of SEHS is a case of "terms and conditions apply" doing a lot of heavy lifting.
And I say this as one of the people who didn't buy both those routes for TSW2 so would benefit from the pricing of the TSW3 deluxe edition.

 

Yeah its not free if you are forced to purchase something else that you didn't actually want, because you are having to buy that in order to get what you actually want.

 

In Software, usually bug fixes and many times new features are free.
And im pretty sure DTG has a steady income from DLCs and Microsoft probably paid them to get TSW2 on Gamepass.
So in my opinion them working hard on small, not groundbreaking (lets be honest) new features is no argument to make it a paid update. Not talking about the new routes, those should not be free of course.
Although personally i dont really care that much about the price as long as i see a big step forward. Sadly i think TSW3 is only a small step.

 

If they gave TSW3 core for free they would not be giving lots of new features for free to people that do not pay the new DLC routes since the old TSW2 routes do not get the new features at all, except the dynamic weather that was available only in scenarios before and it will be usable in timetable mode. Nothing else.

By making the purchase of a route mandatory to get the TSW3 core the message DTG is sending is that we need to keep paying for new routes to get fixes for the hundreds of bugs present in the old routes.

 

Nobody is going to pay £60 for the two routes when there is the standard bundle for £40. That would be silly. And if they don’t have SoS they can get the discount by preordering the deluxe and get it for £45, that’s £5 more for an extra route, which is the big bargain here. There is no case where anyone who owns SEHS and/or SoS is paying additional money for anything. People who don’t own either do get more routes for the same amount of payment and that’s how introductory bundles work and the only way of getting the SEHS upgrade for free if you already have the old version is to buy a single route for £30. It makes no difference to what you pay. Everybody who owns SEHS gets it upgraded and the more routes you buy on top the cheaper all of those other routes become.

£30 for the core, TC, one route plus the SEHS upgrade (if you own it)
£40 for the core, TC, two routes plus the SEHS upgrade (whether you own it or not)
£45 or £50 for the core, TC, three routes plus the SEHS upgrade (If you already have SoS there’s no need to buy the deluxe)

Those who already own SEHS for TSW2 will have supposedly already got their money’s worth from it by now, it is an old route. Nobody is taking that away. And the new version is so much more than the ‘half a route’ some people are seeing it as. Although it looks like a raw deal for the standard edition (with the lack of a preorder discount) it’s not actually costing you any more money than anyone else to get it. That’s the actual truth of it. There is quite a lot of content in the standard edition for £40 and you not losing out by choosing that bundle. I’ve bitten DTG’s hand off for it, it’s great value. There should have been a preorder discount but that would have been £4 off and that’s not worth crying over.

 

So..... the question on my mind. SOS was a success apparently, yet it's bundled for a fiver now.
Does that mean that SOS peaked and dropped off just as quick or it wasn't actually the portrayed success

 

It means it is a great route to put into an introductory bundle to get people interested in the franchise. It’s not in there for existing players it’s to get new interest. It’s only a fiver on a preorder after that it’s a crisp, neatly folded tenner more.

 

What people forget is, that this was an initial release of a new time periode. No matter how much better dtg would have polished crewe - liverpool, now they just dont have the amount of rolling stock to get the variety of other tsw routes, which got a lot of locos & stock to give a dynamic experience to the players.

At some point DTG had to start, and in my opinion the loco & wagon choice is brilliant. Now they just have to pick a next route, where the current rolling stock was used and add new steam engines.

Immagine Riesa dresden with just the br 185 & 146. It just needs a while & route dlcs until the neccessary steam engines and wagons are there for getting a route which feels alive.

Even if the invest of sos isnt covered for whatever reasons, dtg is well aware that this was a first step into a bigger future for steam fans.

 

Actually, the standard and deluxe packs are the only real bargains. I wanted both the US and German routes and I get them both for less than the usual dlc price.
Plus I get early access and those great decals. I figure I'll stick them on my back bumper. I can do that, right?

 

The really logical choice would have been to start with a late 60s route rather than a 50s one - then the BR Blue diesels already in the game could have been reused, and they could get away with only having two steam locomotives since 8Fs and Black Fives were all that was left at the end anyway.

 

What we really needed was proper support post-launch with stuff like a solid tank shunter loco DLC such as the 9400, interspersed between the non-steam releases. Maybe a Diesel Legends-style DLC pack for another route that added locos which could layer into Liverpool-crewe, too.

 

Totally agree on this one. Didnt expect dtg start the giant steam premiere with a hyperbolic hype and not release a single loco dlc. This was disappointing for me a bit, but i guess they were just busy as hell with what we got.

I was hoping for a smaller tank engine for shunting to get at least a bit additional variety.

 

I do think Spirit of Steam would've benefitted from a shunter alongside the Jubilee and 8F at launch but a lot of work went into that release as it is. I remember Matt mentioned that SEHS and Spirit of Steam are the most popular TSW2 routes on a stream and it speaks volumes that they're the only two routes from TSW2 to receive full TSW3 upgrades (and then some in SEHS's case), whereas the rest are only getting dynamic weather settings.

 

I'm a software dev myself and can tell you that not every task is "groundbreaking". Some tasks don't require a lot of intelligence to finish but take time nonetheless. A dev working on a feature for x hours is costing the same no matter how sophisticated, how groundbreaking or how "simple" the feature is.

In the case of the new lighting, most of the work was going through all the light sources and researching the correct values and then entering them. That's not difficult (maybe the research part) but it's lengthy. This cost has to be brought in somehow.

I can see why backwards-incompatible changes and features, that will only be present in future routes, are brought via the technical vehicle of a new game. That's really what this is. It's a new major version of the same game "Train Sim World". Technically it is a new game because it wouldn't have been financially feasible to change the core and then give all of the work away for free. Plus, it would've been very difficult to explain why new features of the same game will not be backported to previous routes.

The new game allows DTG to adapt its strategy regarding Adam's team and keep maintainability.

That being said: I'm missing a cohesive plan that involves all departments and outlines the strategy to the players. I'd love to have a message similar to the "Letter from the Chairman" with Star Citizen that outlines the big picture of TSW. Including an acknowledgement of where DTG stands with TSW right now, where they want to go and, most importantly, how they intend to achieve it realistically. The roadmap was a consequence of DTG overpromising and underdelivering. Since its conception, I think most if not all things were eventually released that made the roadmap.

I counted the DLCs released in the TSW 2 timeframe (not counting routes from TSW 2020):
routes built for TSW2 (release routes plus everything after)
DTG
5 north american freight
2 north american passenger
5 german
5 uk
1 france

3rd party
2 UK
2 Swiss

loco dlc built for TSW2
DTG
1 german freight
1 german passenger
1 north american freight
3 uk passenger

3rd party
2 german freight

For just two years, that is an impressive list. Going forward, Adam's team will give each new route an update shortly after the route release. This will further improve the player experience by not having to wait forever for updates. In TSW2 Adam's team spent most of its time on going through all the TSW1 routes and even some TSW2 routes and upgrading the features. They won't be bogged down in a similar fashion this time around.

Furthermore, there is a noticeable difference in features present at the launch in TSW2 and now at the end of its lifecycle: level crossings were added (originally with SEHS), steam is supported in the core (SOS), liveries can be shared, tool support for longer routes is available (French route), rush hour passenger system (rush hour routes) and likely some more. It will be the same with TSW3. Throughout its lifecycle, new features will come in with new routes.

 

That would be 3 (or 2?) NA freight (Clinchfield, Sherman Hill, and what? Sand Patch was an old TSW1 route); Cane Creek and Horseshoe Curve were 3rd party

 

It's not even a new game. The notion that it's a new game is just false. It's a paid update of the same game. Also when most of the DLCs mostly have recycled rolling stock, that doesn't strike as impressive in my view

 

Silly me. I was looking at the countless examples of software companies (big, small, indie) giving away new content and features as well as bug fixes for free.

As for the "DTG will"...part:
Is this the first time DTG has told us what they plan and will do? Like that they plan/will be taking time after SOS Release to fix bugs in TSW2?

Can you tell me what happened in this case? I bought lots of TSW2 DLC during that time because (silly me) trusted them with that part.

In my opinion this is what will happen to the "we will be fixing DLC right after release" thing:
-"it is on our list"
-"its complicated"
-"sorry we had to delay the patch"
-"sorry that the patch introduced new issues, we are going to improve our QA"
-"We present TSW4 to you"

 

Probably include the save game routine along with that too!

 

Why do people think that TSW is "two years old" or "came out in 2020" ? CSX Heavy Hall was released in March of 2017!

 

Could be due to the fact that tsw and tsw2 are separate games technically even though they are similar

 

Here is how I view this situation. There is an educated (educated meaning knowing well of how DTG operates) part of the community that doesn’t want to give into the antics DTG is playing and avoiding preordering/purchasing while expressing these viewpoints in hopes to change the game of the better for all. Myself included.

There is then the portions who are educated and excited because they want to support the franchise, and the undereducated who think this is a new game. DTG will sell enough copies of TSW3 over the various platforms that will negate any need to satisfy those who don’t like what’s been displayed so far.

If there as going to be a release delay, it would have been announced by now. If there was going to be added fixes, they would have been announced by now. If there was going to be a bonus for those who owned SEHS of SOS already, they would have announced that by now.

Reality is that DTG thinks they are fine with the product has been portrayed because enough people will buy it that listening to the community again won’t benefit them.

As I have mentioned before, I’ve canceled my preorder. There is no incentive to purchase this game for me at its price and feature set.

 

Nobody can argue that not owning anything within those standard or deluxe editions offers superb value for money, but already owning something or not really wanting something within those bundles raises an issue that people tend to forget. TSW2 had three new routes for £25 so it mattered little if you didn't like, say, SPG because there were still two more to maintain a solid level of value. Rush Hour had three exceptional routes at less than £12 each and I don't see any reason as to why any of them could be disliked. TSW3 on the other hand only has only two new routes so there is no throwaway option if you find that you don't like one of them...and at £40 that's a big "ouch!".

My personal feeling is that there is definitely value to be had for a select few, but the problem remains that not everyone likes everything and on this occasion those people are not being catered for at all. £40 for a route you want and a route you might not like is probably too much of a risk and £30 for a single route is just too excessive to be even considered, so however you look at it there is no value whatsoever with either of those options.
For that sort of money DTG should have stuck to the three new routes thing instead of doing stuff on the cheap by recycling old content to bolster up the bundles.

 

There is also the case that neither of the two new routes (and I don’t count Training Centre as a route) are that interesting and there is no option for barebones TSW3 pack at say £15 or at the outside £20. Aside from that £30 or £35 for the standard version, which is what most people with SEHS and SoS already would be looking to buy, would have been a fairer price.

Mark my words, if initial sales don’t meet DTG expectations due to all the issues, save game and also the current wider economic shenanigans, it will be on sale at a substantial discount by Christmas.

 

I predict that after release DTG will shift into "pump out DLCs" mode and we will have the same situation as with TSW2. The priority will be producing and selling DLCs, not fixing bugs. Most core issues bugs probably don't impact the sales that much so I doubt we will see a save game or sound fix soon. There will be of course excuses why it's so hard to fix while DLC after DLC with the same fundamental issues gets released

 

I have no particular interest in USA freight trains and whilst I do like both the previous German high speed routes, that's primarily because they had a good balance of local and ICE services and that level of diversity made a big difference to overall gameplay. You don't always want to thrash a train for 20-30 minutes because it does get a little uninteresting after half a dozen or so services so it is a bit of a strange one that DTG have doubled the length of potentially uninteresting and not added that extra element to balance things out.
Take LGV for example. Visuals aside, It's a solid route - but only for a very limited time. I only use it now to get the 'drive xx miles' achievements because I know I can just set a train to it's max notch and do something else for 30 minutes whilst it's merrily chugging away for 50-odd miles. Sadly, I see that new German route going exactly the same way.

Yes, I agree that prices should be amended - but to me the bigger bundles prices seem pretty fair for their target audience (new gamers) so I think they've got that bit right. My issue lies with the fact that, as an existing TSW customer, if I choose a new route starter bundle that's right for me then (a) I am heavily penalised for doing so and (b) absolutely crucified should I decide to add the second route at a later date. It's an unfair policy that to me suggests DTG have absolutely no interest in current owners because they're not the ones with the bigger bucks.
The second and most crucial thing is that members of this community represent a tiny fraction of the overall userbase, so any level of negativity is kept within the confines of a forum on a website link that very few people know about and therefore will never have any degree of impact on the bigger picture.... and DTG know that! We moan our socks off, receive an occasional sob story / semi patronising comment to keep everyone happy....and that's how life on these forums go!
I often wonder if DTG's only interest in these forums is that of ensuring the dedicated few keep reporting those bugs to ensure the wider audience don't encounter game-breaking scenarios!

(ps) This is the first time in like a thousand posts you've not mentioned the save game thing. What's up? Have you gone all poorly on us?

 

I don't want to get banned for spamming the issue. Then again, it looks like all of DTG have gone on holiday the last few days...

 

I dare say there’s a lot from this post the same…

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-sim-world-2-frequently-asked-questions.25065/

 

I didn't know that Cane Creek and Horsehoe Curve were 3rd party. My bad. Sand Patch was released as a TSW2 route, not part of preserved collection.

 

Both Cane Creek & Horseshoe Curve were made by Skyhook Games.

 

If that happens, I'll probably be joining you !

 

SPG as released with TSW2 was a "remaster" of CSX Heavy Haul, which was the first TSW route from back in 2017

 

Interesting, I haven't had this installed for a while following my big Windows crash quite some months ago now. However I just checked out the dev's update and... wow:-
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/588030/view/3339997914840566425

DTG really should be taking note of this. I mean those night shots look superb and the list of changes and updates is most impressive. I'm really looking forward to driving this. Also if I read it right, unlike DTG who want to charge us £40 for the transition from TSW2 to TSW3 and the removal of the save game, the DV update will be free to those of us who already purchased the programme. One early access investment which really paid off.

 

1 - To restore from a game crash 25,000 ability points into a timetable service. I've restored from game crashes at least 3x
2 - To restore from a service failure because I ran a red signal because I was too busy railfanning and admiring the view to pay attention. I'm not ashamed to say I've restored for this reason too many times.
3 - To restore from a service failure because I ran a red signal that was millimeters from the objective point and I didn't judge my stop distance correctly. Have restored a few times for this reason.
4 - To restore from a service failure because something odd happened. One time I was on a downgrade of 1.1% doing 53mph in a 55mph track limit. Put the train into brake step 1 to slow to a restricted speed and derailed.
5 - To restore from a service that I've made impossible to complete because I did one of the objectives wrong. This is particularly easy in any of the switching (shunting) scenarios. Restoring to the last spot where you know you were fine saves lots of time.
6 - To restore from a service where I coupled a little too fast and put the cars on the ground.
7 - To restore from a service where I coupled a little too fast and put the train into emergency and can't figure out how to restore the cab to operational.
8 - To restore a game where I had to stop in the middle for some reason (like dinner, bed, work, etc)
9 - To restore a game where my inexperience with dynamic braking caused me to go over the speed limit for too long. I restore and got it better.

Need I continue? Size of the routes make no difference. Some of my restores I've never left the yard.

For the past 30 years virtually every game ever made has had a save feature upon it's release. Heck even Mario Party saves each turn. Releasing a game in 2022 with a broken save feature is not optimal but nothing to whine about. TSW3 wouldn't be the first game released with a wonky save function. Releasing a game in 2022 with no save feature whatsoever is completely unacceptable. You are inviting frustration for any of the reasons above and many others. You are asking people to pay for that frustration.

They need the time and patience to get it right. We should be able to continue to use what's there (which in my experience works fine significantly more often than not) while we give them that patience to fix it.