The New Destination System Is Not An Upgrade

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Aran, May 10, 2021.

  1. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    As many of you will know, the release of Southeastern Highspeed brought along with it a new way to do the destinations of the trains. This new system is fully dynamic as it reads the stations from the current service instead of selecting the correct destination from a pre-defined list, thus shortening Development Time as it does not have to be set up for each service individually.

    The main advantage of this system is that it allows trains to be layered on multiple routes without the need of manually adding destinations or setting up a generic destination such as "Nicht Einsteigen", as frequently seen on the German Doppelstockwagen when a more suitable destination is not available for the service.
    However, while this is defenitely an improvement, this new system comes with a large amount of new problems, including the removal of a much needed interactive feature.


    Problems:

    The first problem becomes apparent on the soon to be released Hamburg - Lübeck route. In reality, all passenger services on that route have a Line Number, much like you would expect to see on a bus route. The list for HBL consists out of RB 81, RE 8 and RE 80. These Line Numbers are also displayed on the Destination Screens on the trains, however this is not present ingame. It is unclear as to wether this is a limitation of the system or a failure to set it up correctly, but I am heavily assuming the former.

    The other issue involves services that terminate at a station that is not represented in game, the old system would flawlessly display this destination as it was always done manually. The new system has proven to struggle with this though. While the 395 services on London - Faversham display the correct destinations, the Intercity Services on Hauptstrecke Rhein-Ruhr do not. To give an example, IC 2310 shows the service to start at Duisburg before terminating at Essen after a via stop at Essen. In reality, this service starts at Frankfurt HBF and terminates at Hamburg-Altona, calling at a large amount of stations which I will not list here. Because of this, it is safe to assume that these destinations have to be set up manually, defeating the advantage of reduced Dev-Time and still not resolving the incorrect destinations.

    Lastly and most importantly, the dynamic nature of this system does no longer allow the player to set the destination manually, removing this much needed interaction and further l
    imiting immersion. As you may well have noticed, the TMS screens on TSW trains are very limited in functionality compared to their real world counterpart. One of the few things we could do with these screens was set the destinations to be displayed on the train. This seemingly meaningless feature added more interaction causing the player to feel more immersed in the experience. It was also accurate, as real drivers are required to do this when changing ends at a terminus. Removing this feature made the experience less authentic while making the already sparse Train Managment Systems useless. This will be especially obvious on the Class 377/4 when they "upgrade" the PIS for the Brighton Mainline, as the only interactive feature on the TMS is changing the Destination.


    Solution:

    Having listed the large amount of issues with this new system, it is only fair that I present a way to improve it. My solution involves the trains no longer reading the required destinations from the service but rather from the route they are currently situated on. This way, the player can set them and all trains put on the route using layers or the scenario planner will also be able to use these destinations, thus solving all the limitations of the current development.

    I will go into more detail here.
     
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  2. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    It certainly isn’t an upgrade, like DTG are claiming it to be.

    Yes, it automatically inputs the destinations in for you, but where is the fun in that? Why have you took the ability for players to manually input destinations in for the service? You could’ve built upon the current system and allowed players to input a code, with a list of codes and destinations placed in the empty clipboard area.

    Several suggestions and threads have already highlighted this potential feature, however 90% of the time DTG ignores it. It’s always one step forward, two steps back with DTG...
     
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  3. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It would be cool if they allowed the player to set the destination. It would improve immersion. Not having the ability to do that seems like a downgrade, not an upgrade. If you can do this in omsi 2 then surely dtg can implement it
     
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  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    It looks to me like they have set up the system to display locations taken from the scenario details, and unless the last item on that list is "RE80:Lubeck" or similar, then it would only display "Lubeck" as that's the last destination on the list.
    Simple fix would be to have the destination as a separate parameter which would include the route name (or route code such as S3). One for the next version I guess
    I would imagine this is one for Adam's team. The PIS or the timetable may have to be revised to accommodate the new PIS system and it's requirements for displaying "out of scene destinations". Maybe ask that one on the next roadmap
    Wholeheartedly agree with you on this one. Entering a code for the destination etc should be included in the train setup, even if that code had to be included in the train running order list
     
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  5. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I think the PIS systems needs an extensive upgrade. I like that the new dynamic system can display any destination (excellent for layers). Using a dot matrix instead of textures is a brilliant (and prototypical) idea. Unfortunately, this is where my praise comes to an end.

    Missing line numbers and wrong end destinations are a major issue for the PIS system. Also, seeing how TSW places a huge focus on making as many buttons and things in the cab as possible interactive, I‘d have thought that taking control away from the player by automating this system should have raised some eyebrows.

    My hope is that DTG continue to improve on this system and don‘t let it sit in its current state. There‘s already a long list of things DTG want to improve and I hope that the PIS system didn‘t tumble down to the very end of that list after its introduction with SEHS.
     
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  6. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    Completely agree. I get that those who don’t want or know how to set a destination themselves will benefit from it setting automatically, but it drastically decreases immersion for those who want a realistic experience. DTG probably saw the issues that the German layers were creating where mainly the screens on the 146, 422, and dosto were blank or showed not in service and determined that this new system would fix the issue for the future.
     
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  7. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Also a thing I noticed is that turning around breaks the PIS, I've done a lot of Gravesend-Rainham-Gravesend services waiting for the turnaround at Rainham and the PIS was always blank on the return trip.

    I still prefer the texture-based system of the older routes, ECW was the best, you had it set automatically but still had the option to do it manually using the TMS.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
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  8. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    I also experience this. It’s especially bad on IOW, which is kind of funny since it literally only has 2 possible destinations to display and isn’t even dot matrix.

    ECW was not texture based. The texture based destinations actually ended with the release of ECW. Texture based destinations were introduced with MSB and carried through on routes like HRR and RRO. ECW introduced the dot matrix system, but still allowed for the manual changing of the displays in the cab. This made the visual appearance much better, but still meant that you were locked to the predefined destinations set in the TMS.
     
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  9. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    The PIS on the 377/4 isn't actually texture based, it is a functioning Dot-Matrix with a font. It's just not set up to read the destination from the route.
     
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  10. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    IRL you would set the new route code when you changed ends. I would much prefer this in game to either nothing or the wrong destination
     
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  11. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Apologies, bad wording from my part

    I still personally prefer the texture-based system, but ECW is the best matrix-dot system yet, it has the best of both worlds (IMO) it sets itsels automatically but at the same time it could be set by the player anyway.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
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  12. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    I don't necessarily mind the destinations being automatically updated IF they work correctly, and obviously DTG aren't quite there yet.

    My biggest issue entering them manually is that there often isn't enough time to get the train setup properly in the first place if you want to keep to the timetable.

    Obviously the best solution would be automatic (correctly done), with the option to manually change them if you want.
     
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  13. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The best option would be that you get enough time to set things up correctly (along with rear lights etc)
     
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  14. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    Your solution would create a new problem in a moment. According to your solution principle, you would have to readjust each train on a new route. How should the train know whether it has to write RE80, RE8 or RB81 in front of "Bad Oldesloe"? Just "Bad Oldesloe" is neutral and not tied to a line, I don't think that's a good thing, but I can't find a good solution, except for re-adapting the PIS on all older trains when a new route comes.


    But we shouldn't say that DTG is deliberately doing this badly. I think DTG is also looking for a good way for the PIS, but finding the right way is very difficult and I haven't found a good solution in this thread either.

    But this thread is a good start, maybe someone has a good idea (without adjusting every trainbefore every new route) that DTG wants to use.
     
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  15. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    I agree, casual players don't need to know how to set it and those who want to can.
     
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  16. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    ECW really did it best if you aks me, it has the feature but you don't have to use it. If you're going to switch ends in service mode you will have to set them manually, but you have a lot of time to do that so you aren't late because of it.
     
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  17. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    This is part of the bigger picture with the issue(s) with TSW. In some cases it oversimplifies things, but in other cases it can seem very overwhelming for new players.

    They need to provide options to players, such as 'simple' and 'expert' controls and operations. TSW tries to cater for all without actually providing the player with an option to choose from beforehand.
     
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  18. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    Have you read my seperate post? Because I'm pretty sure that won't be a problem. The list of destinations given to each route would include all necessary destinations, including seperate line numbers.
    In your example that would be three seperate destinations for RB81, RE8 and RE80.
     
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  19. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I like the way ECW did it too. It provides the player with a choice as to whether they want to set the destination or not, as well as choose from some 'different' types of destinations for fun.

    They could've built upon this system and developed a TrainFX system, where the user can enter a code for the destination. Again, this could be optional as to whether the player wants to input it in this way or not.

    Instead, we now have everything completely automated, with no ability to do it ourselves. It takes the immersion away whilst setting up the train.
     
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  20. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    An "advanced" and "casual" mode could really help, but that's something DTG don't seem to be interested in.
     
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  21. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    Having user changeable destinations also added immersion when changing direction after finishing a service. Having to change the destination on the TMS helped make you feel lie you were now driving a different service to a different place, even if it was just going back and forth on the Lewes Shuttle.
     
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  22. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    We all know who their real target audience is (unfortunately)...
     
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  23. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, although I imagine most buyers do fall into that category so in a way it makes sense.
     
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  24. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The HMA platform PIS system reads the service off the schedule, as do at least the S-Bahn trains. They all read correctly S3 or S4, together with the ultimate destination (always off-map for one and sometimes for the other if it isn't Mammendorf). Why this doesn't work on subsequent routes I'm not sure.
     
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  25. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    The PIS had to be set up individually for it to show up correctly, and the BR 423 still uses the old way of doing destinations with it having a pre defined list that is fixed to the 423 only. If you were to put it on any other route it wouldn't be able to show destinations from that route so you'd end up with a situation like with the Dostos.
     
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  26. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    To my understanding, I do believe we are talking about two different things here folks, and lumping them into one problem. While the whole PIS tech is a plugin that can be built and put onto trains, each one has to basically be done on a case by case basis (i.e. the displays of an Electrostar looks different to that of a Dostos, for example). By extension, this also applies to the method of inputting and switching destinations manually. That all has to be done train by train.
    Personally, my best guess is that for most of the recent locos that were made available the past year, maybe a decision was made to hurry the development process and skip out on this feature, which might've taken up valuable time while actually providing little functionality in terms of gameplay. It all works automatically after all.
    However, this tech is continually evolving, especially as station PIS boards are being upgraded with each release. One of the more recent new additions to this tech is the ability for locos to be "aware" that they're on a different route, and therefore takes the list of destinations of that route. It makes things a whole lot more dynamic, as the list is not tied to the train, but the route itself. I can take it and put it wherever I'd like, and it should all work.
    However, that's a new feature by itself, and isn't part of some "new PIS system" that has magically appeared after the release of SEHS (I think the Javelin was the first train to support this feature). I suspect that because these two different things happened around the same time, relatively speaking, some might have confused this into believing that a new kind of PIS system was developed while in fact its just that it's undergoing some changes. Having the ability to change destinations is something that's still possible on some trains, and that functionality isn't going away.

    Really, I think this is yet another casualty of having the kind of development time that routes in TSW have, and I still do agree with some of the thoughts on here. Going forward I would like to see more additions to the TMS systems on trains (besides a destination list), of course it'll have to be necessary functions, but it wouldn't hurt to give the players more buttons to press. In my opinion I think that's what makes a good simulation game– allowing the player to mess around and interact with plenty of things, and a full-fledge TMS could help facilitate that.
    With the whole Rush Hour business coming up, I have a slight hunch we might see a few changes yet again, however we will have to wait and see. :)
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
  27. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I personally think dtg should have a advanced and casual mode. If other games have similar features then why can't tsw? F1 2020 has a casual mode which goes as far to slow the car automatically and steer it automatically as well
     
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  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There is a casual mode. Don't turn safety systems on.
     
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  29. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh but I meant in terms of like the pis and other functionality A casual or simple gameplay style for those who want a simple gameplay experince so like not having to manually set pis with a bunch of codes and a advanced mode for a more challenging experience and having to do more with the train
     
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  30. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    I agree
    I would also like to point out that I would rather dtg fix the incorrect pis screen for the s bahn services- there is no s8 line and when I do set the pis to blank, three carriages decide to not behave and not respond
     
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  31. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Except it is as far as I'm aware. Didn't Adam say that the automatic destinations system was being implemented on older routes when his crew touches them up? Or did I mishear that?
     
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  32. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    According to your principle, the IC or ICE will then go with "RE8 Lübeck Hbf". Your principle just doesn't work, there aren't just RE and RB in Germany.
     
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  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    According to his principle you would need separate "Lubeck destinations" for each line number that terminates there, so separate listings for RE8 Lubeck, RE80 Lubeck, ICE21 Lubeck (made up line numbers) etc
    Then when the service mode is created they would have to choose "the right lubeck".

    I still think having a marker in the service database that sets the service number would be simpler
     
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  34. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    They currently have two systems that don’t fully work properly. Having the choice between the automatic system not showing the line number or being able to select destinations from the wrong route entirely would be difficult for my brain. I’m just hoping they can develop just one well designed system that works how it should and that will suit me fine, whether I get to push a couple more buttons before doing what I came to do (drive the train) or not.
     
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  35. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    That's where you're wrong though, it does not take the destinations from the route, it takes them from the service. THe train has no idea what route it is on, only the last station on the service. That is why we can't set them ourselves, becasue the train doesn't have any options to give us, it's all dependant on the service.
     
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  36. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    "Upgrading the PIS" is the words he used, so yes, I imagine that's what will happen.
     
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  37. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    Except it does, when I say that they would add all necessary destinations I mean that literally. I am well aware that there are more than REs and RBs in Germany, I live here.
    So to spell it out one more time, DTG would have to add ALL necessary destinations, this includes all S-Bahn, RB, RE, IC, ICE, EC, IRE, etc. services that travel on that route. No, there wouldn't be an ICE labeled "RE8 Lübeck HBF", because the ICE services would get their own destination, in this case being ICE xxx Kassel-Wilhelmshöhe - All Via Stops - Lübeck HBF. As ARuscoe helpfully pointed out, yes, the Service Mode creators would then select the Right Destination for the service.
    Again, there would be no trains labelled incorrectly if DTG add all necessary destinations.
     
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  38. dani_alexa2003

    dani_alexa2003 New Member

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    It is a shame the amount of GB for an update there is no game like that with so many GB I get tired already dovetail areglais that so that it takes up less space thanks
     
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  39. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure why you're posting this in here, try Create Thread | Dovetail Games Forums instad.
     
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  40. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    You say DTG should do this, DTG should do that. But how do you imagine that? You say it so easily, but it isn't. The journeys on Hamburg - Lübeck are called RE80, RE8 etc., but the PIS only describes Lübeck because Lübeck is the destination. The train describes the destination, but how should the train know its line number? Should DTG name the platforms, for example, "RE8 Lübeck Hbf"?

    It's not as easy as you imagine

    You could do it so that the trains take the destination from the timetable name, but then all trains would be called RE8, for example, and they would not have their own train number.

    The problem here would be that the PIS would then also describe "RE to the depot".
     
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  41. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying I think it's doable for the limitations DTG have. And you're still not getting my point, the current system reads the final stop, in this case Lübeck, and puts that on screen. THe old system gave each train it's own list of destinations, they were manually put in. A dev spent some time sitting there and tiping in "RE 11 M'gladbach", "RE 11 Hamm (Westf) HBF" and so on.
    What I'm saying is that DTG attempt to combine the two, giving each route it's list of destinations. Destinations that were manually entered by a Dev. That list then get's read by the train when it's put on the route and the player can select the correct destination from that list.
     
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  42. dani_alexa2003

    dani_alexa2003 New Member

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    [QUOTE = "Aran, publicación: 310200, miembro: 12857"] No estoy seguro de por qué estás publicando esto aquí, prueba Create Thread | Foros de Dovetail Games instalados. [/ QUOTE]
    Los anoles tambien tenemos train sim world no solo los ingleses:))))
     
  43. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    Really? Call of Duty Modern Warfare: 50+ Gb update including stuff you wont ever play...
     
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  44. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Best bet is to think of the PIS as a journey - it IS going in the right direction but it's not there yet, and in the state it's in some things have been lost while other things have been gained and it becomes hard to reconcile that.

    I certainly don't want to lose the ability to set destinations for all time, I certainly want to see that come back. We actually have a "Station Directory" list of all possible destinations on, and off, the route in a data file - so the data is there.

    Addressing some of the concerns in the OP:

    Can the route number be included? Anything can be included. I'm not sure why it wasn't, and as I've said now on at least one or two streams, i'm finding out from the team why it wasn't and will work to find out how we get it in going forwards. Yes, I'm saying "going forwards" because i'm not going to stick my neck out and make promises I don't know for sure I can keep.

    Can destinations off-route be included? Of course, we have done so before. Again, I need to work with the team to make sure they're getting them in - adding all the intermediate destinations for all trains that are off the route is a ton of work which is the reason it hasn't been done in the past but it's certainly technically capable of handling it.

    Going back to a system where a train only knows about the route it's on and therefore has no way to figure out where it's going or where it's stopping at along the way is not acceptable, it was one of the biggest complaints previously that when a train was being used on a different layer on a different route, all you got was "nicht einsteigen" or some local equivalent. You don't get that now, now you get correct destinations for any trains using the new system, this is better, this is good.

    The other areas you're showing concern with are just because there's more work to be done.

    As far as casual vs expert, this was handled previously in the old texture based system - a button that would set it to the right thing, and a set of buttons to manually set it. I'd envisage we'd simply return to that kind of solution when screens come back to set the destination.

    Matt.
     
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  45. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Can we get this also on older trains for Layers like the Dostos on Rhein Ruhr Osten and Hauptstrecke Rhein Ruhr?
    I mean real Destination like RE4 to Dortmund Hbf or RE4 Aachen Hbf and RE7 to Rheine, and not only Wuppertal and Hagen or Bochum to Duisburg.
     
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  46. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Whenever the new system is installed on those (hopefully during the MSB upgrade which is going on as we speak), then the Dostos, cab car and 146 will read their destinations from the route they are currently on, they will no longer be tethered to Aschaffenberg-to-Gemunden stops. This has already been done with the Rapid Transit Dostos and cab car and so presumably wouldn't be an especially tough job to repeat.

    Ideally, since the information exists in the file for any given service, they would also display the line number, S3, RE19 etc. That however was not implemented in the RT upgrade, or apparently in HBL either.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
  47. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I don't know that including every intermediate stop, as in the ICEs' "crawl" display, is really necessary or all that much in demand. It's simply off-map termini: if a service is ending at Finnentrop for game purposes but is "continuing" to Siegen as the RL service does, then the PIS board ought to read Siegen. Preferably "RE16 Siegen."
     
  48. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    The 182 and Dostos on Rapid Transit showing a Lot of Nicht Einsteigen since the New Update with the 2021 Timetable.
    So something is wrong with it Matt.
     
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  49. dcnine#5410

    dcnine#5410 Well-Known Member

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    I took a peek at that myself after noticing it, I think the problem comes from the fact the 182 operates the S2 line, but its destination screen for Dessau says “S8 Dessau”. I think that that may be what’s causing the issue, I don’t know for sure though.
     
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  50. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    The Main Team should change some Destinations on the Trains and make the FIS working on the 143 and Talent 2, so we Can have for all Lines the rightful Destinations.

    As Matt Said Nicht Einsteigen is pretty awful on the Trains.
     
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