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Train Sim World 2: Hamburg – Lübeck - Creating Services

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Apr 23, 2021.

  1. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    It's a bit sad that this route literally comes with no new rolling stock at all.
    Yes the 112 maybe, but it surely was not as much effort as the 101 or a new loco. And the Taurus surely not as well.
    I'm not saying that there was not much work in modelling those - but compared to a NTP or GWE it leaves a bit of a sour taste that not even some new freight wagons are included here.

    This makes it the 4th consecutive german DLC with a very easy decision to skip a buy for me - making it 4 out of 4 for TSW2. :( and the 3rd one which could be 80% better with 20% more development effort - mainly from a gameplay perspective...
    Recently I looked at one of my old MSTS Pro Train - Addons - the list of included rolling stock is nearly as much as the whole stuff released for TSW... but on the other hand looking like a mobile game of course ;)

    I really hope this changes sometime, maybe with Scenario Planner V2, maybe because of Adams work (if it ever gets released). I really want to buy and have fun with the german DLC but in the current state they offer far too less value for me. :/
     
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  2. SLBM

    SLBM Member

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    Because those Dostos are really similar, so they likely judged that most people will consider them "sufficiently realistic".
    I suspect that a possibility of reusing the stock might have been one of the reasons why they chose to make this particular route in the first place. It's really logical from business perspective.
     
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  3. TomJswt

    TomJswt Member

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    Is it just me or does this platform look much higher compared to Bargteheide irl?
    487D5772-DC09-4541-94F2-91B2CBAAFDD2.jpeg 15CC4650-FF21-4CE3-A71B-9A05E7CFD2C7.png
     
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  4. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    Tbh we are lucky to get layers , so I wouldn’t complain
     
  5. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    I'm still on the fence with this route. I'm far from an expert on German railroading so the minor mistakes (numbering, wrong equipment, etc) i don't even notice, but it annoys me on American routes, so i do understand.

    My questions/concerns:

    Is the 101 confirmed to be the only extra layer? If so, that's quite disappointing. Still hoping to drive the fantastic 363 on another route one day...

    Will PIS be functional? My biggest disappointment with the 101 is that PIS wasn't added to HRR- I thought the idea was to add it to preserved routes when they got new DLC?

    Will there be any shunting? Or any freight runs that aren't simply A-B runs?
     
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  6. mrcharliemiggins2.0

    mrcharliemiggins2.0 Well-Known Member

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    The PIS will defiantly be functional, since it's a new route. You can see it on the screenshot with the IC coaches in it. It was not added to HRR, because the loco DLC required that route to use it, and it was not a new route. So therefore did not add any PIS

    At the moment, yes, but they *might* add shunting movements with 363
     
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  7. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Member

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    For the PIS on the stations, I think in one picture of the DB BR 101 on this line, there was working PIS shown.

    For the PIS on the 112, I don't like it, that we will not be able anymore to change it ourselves, and that the PIS is not showing any train-category. (No RB or RE, which they show IRL)
    I am also a bit curious, as the screenshots nearly all show different stations in the PIS, so will they change each station, or have they done something funny for the screenshots?
     
  8. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The Gameplay Designer has no control over rolling stock modeling.
     
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  9. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Amazing the things you can learn:

    [​IMG]

    So DB have two locos numbered 112 791. Who knew? Also, it seems DB have discontinued the use of checksums.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
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  10. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    We can’t change the PIS on the newest locos anyway , so I’d imagine we won’t on this loco . It’ll be interesting to find out if we can still change the destination on the DOSTO cab car
     
  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Probably yes, since it's the exact same 766 from MSB.

    ---------------------------
    In an ideal world, the destination boards would be set up to default to an automatic setting, but the player would have an override via the established manual systems.
     
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  12. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Least yea all forget in order to make money you have to give your customers things worth buying and if all you do is recycle your products offen and make your customers feel that your being offered something at all or go away because we have plenty of people who will buy all are recycled offerings,we don't need you.
    I personally don't mind the dosto being reused but even i understand some people being bothered by this happening to offen.
    Note:The reuse of locos and wagons isn't a bad thing by itself infact if the route has those on it then that fine,but adding new trains to a route will ad work but also can ad value.
    Adding something new shouldn't be treated as a hardship,remember that hardship can bring in more customers and thats any business goal,is to be profitable at the end of the fiscal year.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
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  13. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I must say I'm rather disenheartened by the lack of variety of rolling stock on German routes. Since MSB came out as part of the TSW2020 base bundle, we have received no new passenger coaches save just now the two (only two!) Eurofimas with the 101 (white, so only usable with ICs), and no new freight types at all save the uacns tank car that came with the 363 (but which I have yet to see spawn in any other train).
     
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  14. SLBM

    SLBM Member

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    This I agree with fully. But I don't think the "wrong Dosto" might ever be a problem. I fully agree it is disappointing there will be no really new stock. It's just that I can't see the "correct Dosto" being ever the answer to that. That would always be a waste of resource from commercial point of view. What I'd love to see would be some really original piece of driveable stock, and lack of any such is a fully valid complaint IMHO. In fact, I'd be terribly disappointed if they actually put resources into a new Dosto and not made new loco, because that would have meant resources were wasted on, effectively, eye-candy stuff instead of improving gameplay.
     
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  15. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    But, sadly, we haven't seen a really different mainline German loco since the 155. All the others are just variations on the same "robot box," with the 143 being a bit different driving experience but the 112 being the same thing, just faster. Or variations of near-indistinguishable EMUs. Why could DTG not undertake the 218 themselves, rather than leaving it at the bottom of Maik's very long to-do list?
     
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  16. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    I think maybe the rolling stock is aimed towards players who don’t have much German stuff , and want to expand their collection . I like the 182 and 143 , but I don’t own them , so getting the 182 and a similar loco is very good , and with the dostos I might not use them , I’ll just do the 182 and 113
     
  17. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    The Destination system need to look like this
    6B994353-6E13-401C-8952-CE6F3D547063.jpeg BC112E2D-9BD4-4DB0-AA9C-6F9F2ADFCEF4.png
     
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  18. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    We always say that German routes benefit the most from layers, and now we see that on this route there will be no additional layers? Just TWO services for 101 owners????
    I really don't see much value in this route. It's certainly not in the rolling stock, so at least I thought they would put more emphasis on playability.
    Let's see what they show us because at the moment I don't see them doing anything to get our hopes up. Maybe they have some new feature to surprise us because if not, I don't understand where the hours of development have gone.
    And I hope the scenarios are attractive and well designed, not like SEHS and 465, which have no more interest than going from A to B. For God's sake, a child would design those scenarios in an hour of work.
     
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  19. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    This one would be more acceptable if there was a lot of new rolling stock along with it. Low-entry Dostos wouldn't be taken so badly on in a DLC, which offers a complete ICE1 set, THAT would be the highlight. But here it's a loco with very little changes, freight loco with a different livery and no new freight cars. The argument with the dostos looking similar to the high-entry ones is not valid at all. BR 406 on HMA would be wrong, 1442 on SKA would be wrong, these Dostos here... are wrong. And they are a pretty huge portion of the DLC.
     
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  20. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    +1
     
  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Then perhaps DTG shouldn't be saying DTG has "Authentically Replicated Routes and Locos" because it's clear at times that's not the case. Some people actually expect "Authentically Replicated Routes and Locos" which in this case would mean a High entry dostos. You wouldn't put a DB BR 406 ICE3M on HMA, or a S-Bahn Munich DB BR 423 on RRO. That would be wrong.

    I am starting to understand why some are complaning about recycled content in this route. The DB BR 112 is a DB BR 143 but faster (with the wrong dostos in the game), the MRCE 182 is the 182 we already have but for freight operations and there won't be new freight cars. Recycling content isn't bad as long as those trains run on that route in reality (which the low entry dostos don't) but if dtg is just gonna keep recycling content over and over until oblivion, existing players could lose interest and not continue to buy dlc's. This makes me think of when I was in a thread saying that there too many modern German routes (which is true) and the lack of variety in terms of trains for those routes. I do perfer modern German content but I think that dtg needs to start adding different german trains to different German routes so it feels fresh and doesn't annoy some existing players who might be interested in a particular route but uses the same train again and again. Sure it will add work, but it will add value and potentially get more sales by some who may not be interested in that particular german route because it uses a train they don't like or recycles an existing train.

    I won't get this route as the 112 which is effectively a 143 is my least favorite German Trains in tsw and I'm not a fan of freight services so the 182 wouldn't add value for me. The route itself really isn't that interesting either and some sections from what I've seen are quite bland. DTG say they want to make interesting routes yet they make this. I do hope that the next German route is in a different location with completely different trains to give a different feel gameplay wise for existing players. It's a win win for both parties in my opinion. Maybe DTG can make the Frankfurt U Bahn or the Berlin S-Bahn or a German route that has different trains or hell make a historic German route for existing players who want one to refresh German content for TSW
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
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  22. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    I think the next German route will be a route in rush hour , probably a Berlin u/s Bahn
     
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  23. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    This repetition does not bother me that much, and I do not mind deviations from authenticity. But!
    The time has come. Yep.
     
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  24. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    I certainly hope it's not a part of rush hour. We've had 5 passenger focused german routes in a row and I think it's time we get some interesting freight operations too.
    I don't need that many similar routes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
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  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Heck maybe there's a German Diesel only route that uses the DB BR 641s or some other german diesel route that can be made. Or a german subway route or different S-bahn network. Just something to give german content a much needed refresher
     
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  26. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe but I do think it's time dtg make a different style german route so it doesn't feel repetitive. Not all german trains are the same but some of the German Trains in tsw2 feel similar which is starting to annoy some
     
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  27. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    There has to be some Dante out there somewhere deep in Germany \o/

    I like the current approach but I think we need something not that Hauptstreck'ish & big as HMA for eg.
    We need a new hope, a 'new' RSN, with some spectacular history and a proper introduction, as CRR has.
     
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  28. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    There are a few disappointing aspects such as the recycled trains and stock and also the notion that layers weren't needed as if it is a disappointment if they are required. Makes you wonder how in touch some of the team are with the playerbase. We love layers as it adds value to purchases and we like genuinely new locos and stock. I think this is why the 101 has been so well received, and why it was wanted on other routes too.
     
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  29. SLBM

    SLBM Member

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    Some earlier era German route might be interesting. We have some of those from both Britain and US now, but none from Germany.
     
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  30. Lombra

    Lombra Well-Known Member

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    As a non fanatic; can someone show the two variants of Dostos involved? Curious as to what sort of difference we're talking about here.
     
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  31. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    These are the Dostos that are already in the game (low-entry):
    [​IMG]
    These are the Dostos that would be accurate for Hamburg-Lübeck and most of the german network (high-entry):
    [​IMG]

    These differences seem quite minimalistic but since the Dostos are used everywhere in Germany and come in so many variants this is a significant detail that can evolve into an immersion breaker. Most Dostos trains in Germany use high-entry doors on all middle coaches and low-entry doors only on the cab car which then also houses a multi-purpose storage area and a wheel-chair accessible toilette.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
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  32. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    A secondary problem with the low-entry car is that it moves the doors away from the ends, so that disembarking passengers are converging from two directions. DB historically has not liked this arrangement, except on commuter-rail designs.
     
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  33. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    I think the main problem with the low-entry doors is the smaller door width. Another advantage of the high-entry doors is that the main congestion will evolve at the high or low end of the staircase whilst the low-entry gives free movement to the lower deck and blocks off passengers from the upper deck.
     
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  34. Swisstrains

    Swisstrains Well-Known Member

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    For the layers:
    I personally want a realistic timetable, so if there are only two IC services per day- that’s fine for me.
    And on HBL there are only two-four IC services per day. There are also a bunch of ICE services, but they are not using the ICE’s we got in TSW2.
    The only thing that I’m not sure about is, whether the long runs from Hamburg-Lübeck are also operated by the 112, or by the 146?
     
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  35. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The reason for all the modern German routes is because according to dtg most German players prefer modern German routes. If people want a historic German route, I would support their cause. I probably wouldn't buy it though as I perfer modern content. I feel like that there are other modern German routes that can be made that have different trains like the Berlin S-Bahn among others, but they keep using lines that pretty much use recycled trains which isn't a bad thing but it makes things for some players repetitive hence why I think there should be some consideration for a different style German route wheater that's a historic german route, a full diesel german route with a German DMU like the DB BR 648 or a German Diesel Loco like the DB BR 218, a different S-Bahn network, a freight only German route or even a historic route to give some variety for players and freshen up German Loco Content
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
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  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    How does freight operations fit into rush hour. When you think of rush hour in railways, you would think of busy passenger trains, not freight. Perhaps if a new German route is made, it will be another combination of passenger and freight which seems to be the norm with newer German routes for tsw
     
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  37. Nielsen

    Nielsen Active Member

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    Are you basically implying that people should keep criticism to themselves? I’m not sure who would benefit from this, other than those who would prefer to remain casually ignorant under the assumption that DTG did everything completely right.

    Personally I would not notice these particular issues if it wasn’t for the feedback shared on this forum, but now I’ll definitely wait and see if things have changed for the better by the time the route reaches its first sale. I may be a casual TSW player, but being misled into a sense of immersion with this pricing strategy? No thanks.

    Sure minor stuff can pass, but incorrect train coaches are rather mind-boggling from a product dedicated to simulating a railway experience on actual routes with actual operators.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
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  38. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Plus one of the major things to consider about this is in todays tough economic times parting with 20/30 hard earned dallors(Or whatever each counties $$$ would translate to).Is no trivial thing to us,When anyone spend there money on a dtg product it's in hope it will be great(and not to broken).So the best way to show people that it's worth taking a risk on new dlc,make sure you give us a good reason to want it.
     
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  39. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    As someone with fairly limited knowledge of German rolling stock, the Dostos being incorrect doesn't hugely bother me, however I can see why it would bother some.

    However, the lack of anything new in this route is a bit off putting for me. If it was the like the TS version with a 218 then I'd be queuing up on day 1 to purchase. But with the 143, sorry 112, it doesn't bring much to the table.

    The 182 gives me a bit of an odd feeling, as it's the first time DTG have re-released a loco DLC with a route, and I'm not sure it's a practice I like. Does this mean that even the paid loco DLCs are going to be recycled going forwards? Should we expect a 155 to come with the best route? I'm much of the opinion that this route should have brought a new loco to the table, and the 182 should have been a layer for those that already owned it.
     
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  40. seblay1608

    seblay1608 Well-Known Member

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    There shouldn't be that much layers on the route like on others, for example Munich-Augsburg. The BR 112 operated on nearly every regional train (RE8, RE80, RB81), there are only a few RE85 Services (1 per day?) with a BR 218 and some AI-Services with rolling stock we don't have in TSW2 yet.


    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/variety-of-doppelstockwagen.36794/
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
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  41. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    If it was not mentioned in the forums, I would never have known. It does not really matter to me. Sometimes it is advantageous if you have less knowledge. I am not going to buy this route anyway, there is not much really new or innovative as far as I can see now.
     
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  42. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    So, we can use the wrong dostos in the route but we can't add an ICE layer because the ones we have are not correct?
    Well, then it seems to me that DTG uses the realism excuse only when it suits them.
     
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  43. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    Whilst having the same number twice is obviously an error it is correct that there is no checksum. The BR 112.1 can be seen driving with and without a checksum on the front in the real world:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The number on the front only helps drivers to identify their assigned engine fast when starting service in a yard where multiple engines are parked. The full vehicle registration number is applied to the side of the train, with the country and operator code, the vehicle number and the checksum (below the DB logo on the side):
    [​IMG]
     
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  44. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    The whole 112 Lok numbers are wrong.
    Its DB BR 112 101-190
     
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  45. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It would take a real DB trainspotting geek to notice the Dosto doors. Whereas the rawest noob can tell that an ICE 3 isn't an ICE 1 or 2- they look nothing alike.
     
  46. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    If you would like to give feedback, you are more than welcome to do it (after all that’s mostly the point of these forum threads). Of course you can tell DTG that reusing the MSB dostos was a wrong move; again, some might find it extremely bothersome, others can just brush it off because they don’t know the different variations of dostos on German passenger trains. If you can deal with it, then go for it. If you can’t, then just don’t buy it. I understand how you guys feel about DTG being lazy enough to include the incorrect dostos, I would feel the same if they do this in an American route. If you want to teach DTG a lesson, don’t buy the route to discourage them to not reuse rolling stock in this way, but there’s still gonna be those streamers who buy it just to show off, and those on the forums to write down a bug list and review it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
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  47. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Just out of curiosity, what was the deciding factor in your deciding to skip HMA?
     
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  48. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Clinchfield get 2 coal hopper, 2 boxcars, a caboose and a completely new loco?

    Probabily the needed resource went there instead of HHL.

    They probably figured out more people would be bothered if they included 1 coal hopper instead of 2 on CRR than the correct DoStos on HHL, maybe they were wrong? Or maybe they are right, at the end this forums are a pretty small percentage of the people that buy DLCs.

    It's still pretty sad IMO, Buying this route I'd feel a bit of an idiot, they know I'd end up buying it anyway so they figured it wasn't worth it to go the extra mile for authenticity, I'm not a fanatic of german DoStos, the fact the wrong ones are used here slightly bothers me but it's not a deal breaker, but seeing other DLCs seemingly receive more attention for the same price I am left wondering how stupid I am for buying the "wrong" routes... maybe I shouldn't buy this and get CRR instead... and follow Sam's advice. I don't have to buy it.

    A wrong handrail was spotted on CRR's SD40 and was fixed before release, a similar inaccuracy has been found on the 112 (headlight), and it seems like they still haven't fixed it.

    What's the difference? What is the rationale that leaves us with such different quality for the same price?

    Since the rolling stock is not as good as CRR I am 100% sure the route itself and the timetable is going to be A LOT BETTER, yeah...
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
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  49. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    The missing layers on consoles. When they're in I figure will have bought it in about 5 seconds ;)

    (I wouldn't count that to this 20/80 stuff either as it looks quite good with layers and the optimization is far more work)
     
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  50. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    OK, makes sense. With the layers, on PC, it's a great route.
     
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