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Tsw Just Not Cutting It With The Pc Crowd!

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by longo239, Sep 17, 2020.

  1. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    You technically can share liveries, and do full on repaints, but there are a lot of steps to do that.
     
  2. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Kind of irrelevant.. because no one is. Where are they all?
     
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  3. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Technically you can do lots of things but as far as DTG is concerned there is no sharing of liveries.
     
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  4. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    It’s sad that they don’t appreciate the mods some people do to genuinely make it a better game. All because of this clarity nonsense.
     
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  5. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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  6. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Like I said... could you do this in TSW2?
    [​IMG]

    or this?
    [​IMG]

    If it consists of simple shapes and colours, it's possible. Even font based logos can be replicated by using custom shapes, but without the ability to import photos you are seriously limited.

    You can't create your own routes either.

    I'm not anti TSW2, but the whole point of this thread is the low take up amongst PC users... I'm just explaining why.

    A total dearth of 3rd party content, and the ability to create authentic, correct liveries, and no ability to create routes.

    I want to be wrong here... I think it would be amazing if I could create any of the above in TSW.. and put them on whatever route I wanted, chosen from thousands available from 3rd parties and users. Ain't ever gonna happen though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
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  7. rabid

    rabid Member

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    So what's the concensus of this thread: do we hope and pray DTG will eventually give TS1 a proper makeover, or that another developer makes an entrance into train simulation (e.g. Microsoft)?
     
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  8. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Personally I'm not concerned about a "makeover" for TS. I just hope it continues to be supported for the foreseeable future. The game engine is old... it's unlikely there will ever be a core update to fix THAT without totally breaking it. Like I said, with add ons it can look amazing for its age. I'm happy with it.

    If MS do... fine... but the attraction of TS for me is the ability to do almost anything with it due to the literally tens of thousands of scenarios, routes, models, liveries, etc etc.... Proper liveries too... photo based, and accurate, right down to the smallest detail... stickers, decals, warnings, TOPS plates, depot codes... you name it... total accuracy.
     
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  9. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Technically, yes. You would have to export the textures to Photoshop. But yes, you can do that.
     
  10. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    And how would you get them back in? If I can, that would be great, but I've searched to find an answer to this, and I can't find one. You have to export them to Photoshop with Train Simulator as well.
     
  11. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    you asked if people were sharing mods to TSW2 and the site shows they are. Your response is moving the goalpost of your original question I responded to,
     
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  12. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    You know what's going on. TSW modability is very limited.
     
  13. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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  14. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Then I don't understand. That's not a million miles away from how you'd do it for TS, or X-Plane etc. Why isn't there a healthy, buoyant community of TSW models and repaints just like there is for TS? That video is from 2018! I had to go and look for any repaints.... and look pretty hard, and there are hardly any out there? I'm not the only one just assumes that there's no 3rd party content because you can't.

    Also, this would totally negate the in-built livery editor's restrictions on sharing as this is done outside of the game, just like in TS, so there's literally no restriction on sharing repaints done this way... again, just like with TS.

    If you've been able to do this from the get go... where are all the repaints? Where's the catch? Gotta be one, especially now TSW has a scenario editor... why no 3rd party content, except the teeny little bit you have to look really hard for? Why no paid for 3rd party content? I don't get it... So you CAN create liveries like the ones I posted above? I must be missing something. Is there just no demand for it or something? I would have thought everyone would be all over this is a cheap suit. Gotta be a catch. What's the catch?

    Someone will be telling me next that you CAN create routes, but no one's bothered to create any of those either.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  15. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Modifying and replacing liveries in TSW/TSW2020 does just that: it replaces the livery. That means that if you wanted the BNSF AC4400CW reskin, you had to choose which of the CSX liveries you would like to overwrite.

    With TSW2, that restriction has been somewhat lifted, and now you can share liveries made in the designer without replacing any existing ones with a limit of 30 with a tool called TSW2 Livery Manager. However, I am not certain if folks have yet to import photoshopped liveries using that tool.
     
  16. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    So there's the catch. You can only have 30? Well that explains it. I've got hundreds! Some TS users have thousands.

    I got all excited when I read Anthony's post... but there you go. I should have known there was a reason there's still no 3rd party content. Basically... it's not worth anyone investing the time if you can only have 30 repaints. I've never seen a custom built model for TSW either... or a route, so I'm assuming that's not possible either.
    Such a shame, because if it was possible to create models, repaints and routes... TSW would quickly become the default choice for train simmers. DTG would clean up. As it is... it remains a console game then. Such a shame. ...and again, that's not a disparaging comment - It's just not the same product, and maybe I'm wanting it to be.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
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  17. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    You can have 30 installed at a time, but in theory you could have unlimited amount in a separate repo, and install those you would like to use in that particular time. Might not be super user-firendly, but can be done.
     
  18. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    This is no good if you want separate liveries as it repaints the entire fleet.

    Again, TSW is nowhere as free or flexible as TS1 when it comes to repaints, modding, replacing or anything along those lines.

    Until this happens, TSW will always be limited for the community and developers.
     
  19. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Several of my friends on Steam, who used to play a lot of TS20xx, have been playing TSW quite a lot lately. I have migrated too. So I doubt DTG is really being delusional here.

    Looking at the stats provided by steamdb.info, the 24 hour peak of players online are;
    2104 players for Train Simulator 2021
    491 players for Train Sim World 2
    223 players for Train Sim World 2020
    So, in just a few years, while having very little content, no editing tools, short routes, no steam engines, and just a handful of countries, TSWs player numbers (on PC only!) already have a quarter of what Train Simulator has. Considering it took a while for Train Simulator to get this amount of players numbers, I'd say TSW is doing pretty fine.

    And looking at non-DTG made train simulators, TS and TSW seems to be the two biggest on the market.
    240 players for Trainz Railroad Simulator 2019
    164 players for Trainz A New Era
    131 players for Derail Valley
    61 players for Rolling Line
    7 players for Train Frontier Classic
    5 players for EEP16
    5 players for Diesel Railcar Simulator

    So, while I agree that having no editing tools is a big downside, I don't think DTG is being delusional here. I'm confident that TSW will overtake TS in a few years. I suspect quite a few more people migrating once TSW features some steam locomotives. There'll always be people playing good old Train Simulator though.

    Considering DTGs main competitor, Trainz, is known for its user friendly editing tools, I wonder if DTG made the decision not to focus on editing tools on purpose.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
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  20. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    The casual Train Simulator players who weren't really interested in building anything, or accuracy, or having tons of freeware DLC etc probably did migrate to TSW, yes. Why wouldn't they?

    We'll have to wait and see but I cant imagine why it would. It doesn't do the same things that TS does. It's a different piece of software for a different audience, who want different things. I'm sure numbers of users will grow... of course, but the question is; Is it at the expense of TS, or are they using both? Are TS numbers dropping as TSW numbers climb? If not, then... (shrug).
     
  21. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    You're making assumptions here. What's your source of info?
    I know I spent quite a bit of money on TS20xx DLC and I have migrated to TSW. Why wouldn't others do the same?

    And I'm pretty sure the majority of TS20xx players didn't build anything, they aren't using the editor. Those who like creating stuff, might as well go with the Trainz series.

    Sure, there's differences in TS and TSW, but the core gameplay, which is driving trains, is pretty much similar. And sure TS can do things TSW can't, but the same applies in reverse; TSW can do things TS can't.

    Don't forget that DTG decided to create the all-new TSW with unreal engine, because the good old TS engine had its limitations. I think we can expect much more features to be added to TSW over future, while I doubt we'll see much change in TS20xx. What features did TS20xx had when it was just a few years old?
     
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  22. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    So everyone who is not interested in creating content is a casual for you? For me train sims are about driving the train, this is what I find enjoyable since I started with MSTS more than decade ago.

    I'm not interested in freeware dlcs because it usually ends in a dependency hell. And with the amount of high quality licensed stuff I really have no need. The only thing I really consume are scenarios, because quickdrive is not really usable for passenger services. Timetable kinda solves this problem for me in TSW.

    The accuracy aspect Is debatable for me, i.e. I'm pretty certain TS20xx has singular brake pipe pressure for the whole train, which is a huge limitation of TS20xx when it comes to long freights. Some addon makers try to work around of it by slowing brake pipe pressure drop, but this trades one set of problems for another and is in the end not how brakes work. TSW doesn't have this limitation, and while I don't doubt there are issues in TSW implemetation, still it makes managing and braking a long train much more enjoyable than in TS20xx.

    And for me, it is more important to actually have a system that atleast tries to resemble the real thing, than to have the ability to customize the look.

    Yes, there are still problems with TSW (the biggest one for me is the buggy save system that likes to break scenarios, and resets cab controls), yes there is limited content, yes there are things that don't operate as they should. But the narrative that DTG went for a more arcady casual approach just doesn't hold up, when the old TS20xx has a lots of stuff that are plain wrong when it comes to train operation.
     
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  23. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I don't see TSW as arcade at all.
     
  24. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    No, that's not what I meant. Why is everyone being so sensitive? :) I mean that there are some users who genuinely are not interested in getting into route building, scenario developing, reskinning etc. They literally just want to be able to load it up, and drive. All I'm saying is that those players will probably want to move to TSW because it looks nicer, and they're not losing anything - there are literally no negatives for those people.
     
  25. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘Don't forget that DTG decided to create the all-new TSW with unreal engine, because the good old TS engine had its limitations.’

    Aren’t the limitations of TSW and TSW2 in many ways down to the Unreal engine?

    ‘I think we can expect much more features to be added to TSW over future, while I doubt we'll see much change in TS20xx.’

    That’s true but only because DTG don’t actively develop TSxxxx anymore. Don’t kid yourself that DTG are planning to add lots of new features to TSW either. How many new features have been added since the franchise started? Not just features either. How about a simple concept like a train simulator that has steam trains?

    ‘And I'm pretty sure the majority of TS20xx players didn't build anything, they aren't using the editor. Those who like creating stuff, might as well go with the Trainz series.’

    It may well be true that many who bought TSxxxx never built anything. But it is also probably true that a very large number of the people who bought a lot of content (routes, rolling stock) did. Those purchases were what kept that franchise (and DTG) going. As for Trainz the videos are pretty but I’ve come across few TSxxxx users who found it a useful alternative - and over the years many have tried to find alternatives to the groundhog day nightmare of DTG quality and broken promises.
     
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  26. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    They might not move if they want to drive a steam engine or race up the ECML in a Deltic!
     
  27. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    I think that while the TS engine is old and any further updates are either zero or very limited The move to unreal engine for TSW hasn't been without its issues and isn't going to be that straightforward if every time they want to do an engine update, it means a "new" game like we're experiencing at the moment.
     
  28. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    Depends on what limitation are we talking about. If the limited creative tools, than yes, most likely is it down to DTG using Unreal Engine, and not prioritizing those tools. In TS those existed because DTG themself required a route editor, a scenario editor, blender plugin...etc, in TSW they just use a customization of the Unreal Engine toolkit, which they cannot release, because of licensing reasons.

    The problem is that DTG had really no other option. TS20xx is a product build on backward compatibility. I can still use stuff that came with railworks without any issues. It will look dated, and simple, but it will work. Any major engine overhaul is very risky and complicated in such enviroment. It might realistically be seen as not feasable. That's why DTG had to go for a fresh start, and they are too small of a company to be able to build a modern on their own. Just that part alone would take them years.

    The simple answer would be, everything. As it is a fresh start, every system we currently see in the game had to be reimplemented in TSW. You can actually see the in the first year or so of the TSW.
    They started with Heavy haul - basic train handling and world building, US signaling. Then they implemented basic passenger logic, with Great Western Express, as well as UK signalling. Basic eletric stuff, german signaling, pzb, in rapid transit. Basically in each DLC you can see bits and pieces of functionality being introduced to the game.

    It just about now when the feature pool might be sufficient for third parties to be usable and join the platform.
     
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  29. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    True enough.
     
  30. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘It just about now when the feature pool might be sufficient for third parties to be usable and join the platform’

    if you go back through these forums, ever since TSW was released there have always been posters who with great optimism predict that NOW is the lift off point. There were posters connected to the industry who suggested that the Unreal engine and the concept of an editor was never going to work out and yet they were chased away by posters who KNEW that DTG were just PERFECTING the editor prior to its release.

    Perhaps it may be that DTG really aren’t interested in having third party developers on the platform (despite whatever may have been said in some multi hour streaming session).

    You’ve carefully changed the idea of functionality to be route assets and logic, for example UK signaling. They are elements needed for the DLC. If your definition of functionality is what you believe the future to be (rather than say a useable editor) then yes, DTG will probably meet your expectations.

    DTG had no options? That I doubt. And if in choosing the Unreal engine and knowing the issues that would present why did DTG keep up the pretence of providing an editor for so long? Either they did not understand the limitation properly or they misled their user base.
     
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  31. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    Rivet games are getting their feed wets with Isle of wight, that is to be released soon, Arosa Line is in the works. Skyhook Game is afaik working on a route as well. I don't say this is a lift-off point. There is no lift-off point, it will be a slow gradual climb, the same as it was with TS20xx.

    Why wouldn't they be? They bring people and money to the platform. Or are you trying to suggest DTG doesn't want revenue? But people also need to understand the it is a totally new platform for third parties that were used for the old TS for a decade.

    I haven't changed the idea. They are feature prerequsites that you need before you want to create an authentic track. They take time and manpower to implement, they don't just appear out of thin air. They are still adding these, so that the collection of authentic track possibilities keeps expanding.

    Its like people are forgetting the same was true also for TS 20xx. i.e. It didn't had PZB from the get-go. At first everyting was just a variation of the AWS, with 'q' button confirmation. Also signaling on german routes was aspect based, not speed based, it was implemented down the line, as well as LZB, and ton's of other "features" that increased TS 20xx authenticity. Also there DTG spent majority of their time developing these kind of features and not creative tools.

    Or maybe they were to optimistic with what part of their internal tooling can and cannot be released, as they were used to releasing just about everything they use. They have the option of building a separate scenario planner that is independednt from the unreal toolkit, but the problem is that this will take time, as it doesn't bring direct revenue and DTG is in no need of it. So it cannot be their primary focus.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
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  32. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘Rivet games are getting their feed wets with Isle of wight‘

    Rivet are hardly unconnected with DTG.

    ‘Or are you trying to suggest DTG doesn't want revenue?’

    How does third party revenue flow to DTG? Even if there’s some licensing arrangement it’s only a percentage of the revenue. Note as well DTG aren’t easy to work with. Just talk to some of the third party developers on TSxxxx.

    ‘Or maybe they were to optimistic‘

    Which is as I said they didn’t understand the limitations

    ‘as it doesn't bring direct revenue’

    Why doesn’t it bring in direct revenue. One of the reasons many TSxxxx users didn’t move, or moved back was the lack of an editor. More features adds to the game appeal, that leads to more sales of the game and add ons.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
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  33. GothicMatt

    GothicMatt Active Member

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    I have to disagree with your first point as there are many TS players who do build routes and are very accurate. Have you looked on www.alanthomsonsim.com ? There are many route creators aswell as scenario builders, Livery Creators and players who fix routes made by DTG
     
  34. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    So I read in this topic that TSW2 is not cutting it... others then say it's early days, give it time etc. How much time should we give then?... a couple of years? By that time we will be thinking of buying the game again?
    In previous videos even before TSW2 was released, Matt and Sam were already mentioning ''this or that will be coming in TSW3''.
    I fear we will be having these same conversations over and over until the end of time, Bung Ho chaps... keep smiling ;)
     
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  35. BR125

    BR125 Member

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    they got the groundwork wrong at the very start and changed direction halfway through - they cant keep the talent to save the ship.
     
  36. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    This post, right now is the first time I'm mentioning TSW3 to say that there is no plan for a TSW3. Whatever you think you heard, you misheard.
     
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  37. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately I'm unable to find the FAQ that was on the website prior to the launch of TSW2. I can't remember the exact wording used, but it mentioned that in order to support Steam locomotives, it'd need another engine update. Perhaps you have a copy of that FAQ somewhere to find the exact wording used. It gave me the impression that a TSW3 is just a matter of time, since an "engine update" was the whole reason behind making TSW2. Or did I misunderstand the information provided in that FAQ?
     
  38. Sintbert

    Sintbert Well-Known Member

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    A pure engine upgrade doesn't require a new game. The new game came because of all the other changes they did to how the game works, which meant that everything they have done and released up to that point is incompatible with the new version. Now they hat the clinch of ether rework all the stuff and then release, which would have meant half a year with no new content, or release a new game with only the new stuff and port the old stuff over post release.
     
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  39. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    That's only because someone thought low numbers of PC users = "not cutting it". Personally, I doubt PC users are actually the demographic they're shooting for with TSW. Just a guess of course, but I'd put money on it.
     
  40. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    It strengthens the platform... makes it more appealing. I bought Train Sim on the strength of it's 3rd party content. If that content wasn't available, then DTG would have none of my money. As it stands, they have quite a lot of it. That is due solely to 3rd party content making the platform the flexible, customisable entity we all enjoy. Conversely... I've spent FAR less on TSW. I bought the original TSW... then the Northern Trans-Pennine...That's it.That's all I've spent. I've spent HUNDREDS on DTG content for TS and they have 3rd party support to thank for that.
     
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  41. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    Nah, don't give them time. Buy it once it is a product you think you'll enjoy. If that will be in 3 years, then buy it in 3 years. If it will be never, then never buy it. If next year a competition comes with a better product, buy that instead. ;)
     
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  42. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Active Member

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    I think TS has one more surprise in it. Whether that be an upgrade to a massively improved legacy version or an Open Rails style third party widget. It will survive until there is another rail sim that fills the TS gap in the market. A gap that is only slightly narrowed by TSW.

    There's space in the world for both TS & TSW they have different constituencies, different characteristics and different strengths and weaknesses, many (like me) cross over without ever trying to compare the two but I'm also not against a bit of jocular TSW v TS banter.
     
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  43. ex-railwayman

    ex-railwayman Member

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    No, and it never will in my house. Far too many silly restrictions in TSW and with the antics of collecting hard hats and repairing fences is not the sort of thing us oldies expect the game to be marketed towards, how juvenile. We can't walk around everywhere on every route, too many boundaries and invisible barriers to negotiate, it's tiresome and childish. There's so much track built but we can't drive on it all, unable to manually change junction levers as they haven't built them in, so we're left with a third of the routes built but unplayable, we don't have the ability to do our own thing, no editting routes, scenery wise, no editting from an operational playing perspective, so, they will never tempt gamers away from TS2020 when it's like this, and as their market is aimed more towards the console players, many old hands have said fine let them get on with it, we'll go back to TS2020 and play with our steam locos, with no restrictions in-game on any layout, we can do what we want anywhere, and I obtained the freely available reshade.me tool utility to spruce up the graphics a bit, it looks a lot better than it did a few year's ago, so, I'm happy, and we have a veritable treasure trove of stuff in Steam Workshop, with nearly 25,000 items currently to choose from. TSW will never ever have the depth of locomotive and rolling stock library we have currently in TS2020, freeware and/or DLC, from North America, Russia, Britain and across Europe, and it'll take them 10/15 years, or, so, to catch up and most of us by then will be married with families and no spare time to play, or, dead and buried.

    Cheerz. Steve.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
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  44. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I hope I'm NOT dead in 15 years LOL
     
  45. TSWx

    TSWx Active Member

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    The reason is simple
    I suspect due to
    A lenght
    B variety (as in routes and recycling train models to different routes whether the other typ would be more logic)
    TSW isn't selling that good.
    Example one person wants to play a trainsim comes to a website comparing TS to TSW be like: ohhh TSW looooking gooooood uh I can only drive untill Reading what? I'll take TS.
     
  46. mike370

    mike370 Active Member

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    In the nicest possible way (genuinely not wishing to offend), perhaps it's the case that's you're a little blinded having come to TSW2020 first, and then the TS20xx series (presumably TS2020) so very late in the sim's evolution. So in reality you likely have absolutely no idea what TS2021 can do or can't do. Players that closely followed the evolution of RailSimulator/RailWorks/TrainSimulator over 12+ years haven an extremely good idea of the all the content for the game, and what it truly can do (or can't do). All the various add on apps, tools & ehancement packs can create a gaming experience quite different (& signficantly more impressive) than that seen out of the default vanilla STEAM 'box' Plus the amount of content both payware and freeware is mind blowing. If you think there's a lot of addons on Steam, there's perhaps 3-4 times (or even more) the number from commercial 3rd parties and the thriving TS Coummunity scene.

    For me, the obvious personal positives of TS2021 over TSW2:

    1. A full editor (exactly as per DTG and all other commercial developers use themselves) - both for route building, scenario building and to a lesser extent encouraging 3D modelling development. All of this available to every player. Yes, not all players will want to use all or even any of this ability - but I bet you a good 25% do (even if only for creating scenarios or tweaking existing scenarios), and as Medellinexpat has pointed out these are likely your long-term commited players that buy hundreds of official DLC over the years. They are extremely important customers for the DLC sale model DTG uses. Note freeware route/scenario creation often requires considerable numbers of dependency payware DLC. Which equals more sales of official DLC (through STEAM) when players want to take advantage of many 'freeware' offerings. So DTG does benefit considerably from the freeware TS Community scene by the extra interest generated in the TS2021 game, and the necesary official assets required for players to enjoy many such freeware creations.

    2. Long routes (some very long routes) in the hundreds of miles. i.e. a good 4+ times longer than the average 30-40 mile route offering in TSW2. The better routes in TS are incredibly accurate to real life. And they're are also a decent sized number of novelty & fictional routes availablee for kids & the whole family. You can have a true laugh, as well as being incredibly accurate to the real world routes. Note 3rd party and freeware communities, often pay exceptional attention to detail - all the many little asset features (signs, clutter, correct OHLE, correct signalling, more precise scenery etc) that really bring routes to life.

    3. The shear number of routes in TS20xx. Their are many hundreds. And whilst the mainstream official Steam DLC have been very much focused on North America, UK, and Germany (& to a lesser extent France, Austria & Switzerland - + some Chinese & Japanese routes) - there are a great many TS community routes (both commercial & freeware) for countries including Netherlands, Sweeden, France, Italy, Spain, Romania, Czech Republic, Russia, Brazil, India, South Africa etc.. And some of them are extremly good. Some of the very best freeware routes are better than many of the payware offerings.

    4. Thousands of locos covering most key historic eras in numerous countries. Plus hundreds of steam locos, especially for the three core markets U.K., U.S., & Germany. Yet not a single steamer in the TSW series yet, and it's pretty clear in all likelihood you ain't going to get any until TSW3 (so at least a couple of years yet). And some myth that keeps on doing the rounds, that it was a good while before steam locos were available in RailWorks. There were in fact a good number of steam locos (especially for U.S. & U.K.) in the game by TS2012. i.e. 4 years in from the very start of Train Simulator as we know it. And there were more basic such loco offerings already available before this date. Also, I'd add that regardless of traction the most advanced 'Pro' or 'ExpertLine' locos in TS2021 have more functionality than TSW2 models. And as a casual player you likely won't be aware of a great many of these because they're not sold on STEAM. I appreciate it's still earlier days & that might change with TSW2. Although I'm not convinced it will do so, because it's become increasingly clear that TSW2 is chiefly targeted at the more casual gamer - rather than hardcore train sim fans.

    5. The ability for most players (with a little determiination) to create their own loco reskins with none of the silly limitations in TSW2. You theoretically can recreate virtually any real life livery very accurately (well at least as accurately as your skills allow), and this includes full weathering & actual logos. And very importantly you can easily share your creations with the whole TS community. And there is no limitation on number of such reskins. I have many thousands in my game, whilst keeping all the original default liveries. Which so adds to the realism of the simulation. And you're not limited to using just 2 within scenarios - you can use as many as you like, to make it as realistic and/or interesting as possible.

    6. Rolling stock (wagons, coaches, and misc equipment). Well there's tens of thousands in total! The sounds are often significantly better than that seen to date in TSW2. Again, that could change in time - we'll just have to wait & see.

    7. Ability to use custom controllers. What serious train simmer really wants to use an Xbox controller, as the main driving tool for their simming experience? In TS20xx you can pretty much use anything you like. Not simply the commerical 'RailDriver' (not my cup of tea, but I can see how for many players it really adds to their immersion - and they'd be lost without one), but all manner of joystick throttles, Flight Sim throttles/quadrants, more bespoke controllers (such as those know available from Alan Thomson Sim, and Matt P himself a few years back with his own impressive setup of digitial dials, & various button controllers gave a good example of what could be done). Then there's tracking head controllers such as TrackIR, which has been 'officially' (was possible a while before) available since TS2015. I'd struggle without this, never wishing to go back to more basic hand controllers for such viewing options. Still not yet available in TSW2, with still no guaranteed date for such contollers - I truly hope TSW2 players don't have to wait too much longer.

    8. In-game driving live mapping. Ability to run a second windowod external app with live mapping of train with it's display on Google maps/earth & with any desired route notes. Plus I'd argue the default in-game route map in TS2021 with its sharp contrast black/white colouring plus extesnsive location labelling is far clearer than the bland (& virtually no location info) offering in TSW2. This makes both driving and scenario creation so much easier & rewarding in TS2021, especially with challenging complex swithcing operations in large yards. I just get completely lost in TSW - and really frustrated to have no information about key location features along the length of the route. Maps without symbols, labels & legends, perhaps aren't really maps! Why keep the TSW base map so very basic - it just doesn't make sense. It seems to be another case of this modern fad for minimalism over practicality.

    9. In-game sounds espcially locos, are in a different league when compared to TSW2. TS2021 benefits from numerious specialist sounds creators, with fantastic sound enhacement packs for numerous locos & rolling stock (especially sounds created by Armstrong Powerhouse & Steam Sounds Supreme). Plus scenario pack enhancements that allow very effective train annoucements & station announcemets (think Verysystem, 3DZug etc..). I'd be surprised if one day that didn't come to TSW2, but not available to enjoy currently.

    10. Many tens of thousands of scenarios in TS2021, some of which are incredibly imaginative. Chasing yellows, unexpected break downs or other random events, fantastic shunting/switching scenarios, complex freight runs - all in virtually every weather conditon & season. Just so much variety, rather than your typical routine (I've done it a hundred times before, with mostly green signals) A-B runs in TSW2. Plus with TS2021 freeroams you, can more or less do anything you like. And of course there's the Steam Workshop where players can share their route & scenario creations for all other players to enjoy. Not so with TSW2, you're stuck with what you're given activity wise - I watch with interest to see how effective and popular the new 'scenario editor' (maybe more a glorified Quick Drive) in TSW2 turns out. But it has huge limitations compared to scenario creation opportunities in TS2021.

    11. No walking!! Not everyone is keen (or even the slightest bit botherd about) on the first person walking feature in TSW2. Funnily enough a large proportion of users play train simulators to drive trains. Yes it's nice to be able to occasionally sit in the coaches and watch the world go by in passenger view (which of course you can do in TS2021, but limited to a fixed seating point), but most of the time many simmers just want to drive the train in-cab and/or watch it from the outside view. You TSW2 fans, do realise that one of the reasons that game's routes are so short, is that it takes an incredible amount of time/effort to create the extra detailed modelling to allow players to explore the immediate surrounds on foot? That naturally takes away from time available for the route build proper i.e. the tracks and trains. So that's currently a huge limiting factor for TSW2. It's not yet known whether routes might become longer, as the artists/developers become more experienced over time with route building. But quite possible, the vast detail required for creating a wider accurate & highly detailed world means route length remains greatly compromised in TSW2. Plus merging routes has become pretty common place in TS2021, you end with mega routes/networks allowing huge development opportunity for long realistic passenger/freight operation scenarios. From what I understand, this could prove extremely challenging to attempt in TSW2, with all the 'cooking', 'baking' and other complications of the UE4 cross platform software - and players are going to have to rely on DTG to do such creative projects. There's just so much dependency on DTG to create content - are they really going to give true train simmers what they really want? (That's an open ended question by the way. Again I very much hope DTG surprise everyone and deliver some great variety DLC, with much of the key wishes by their player base).

    12. TS2021 is only for PC. I have nothing personal against consoles. But this move by DTG to open up TSW to 2 different console platforms in addition to PC, has in IMHO been a massive limiting factor for the functionality & developement of TSW. And will make future developement so much more complex in so many ways. Especially when DTG made the decision that all platforms must offfer the very same features (& the game is essentially the same regardless of platforms). Many console players seem deluded that there has been no dumbing down of the game for PCs, by opening up to consoles. The latest PC gaming rigs are so much more powerful than their console equivalents. And yes the new generation of consoles (such as PS5) might be a significant step up in capibillity for consoles (again I'm truly pleased for Playstation & Xbox users), but mark my words the next couple of years will see another generation of PC hardware release also; PC gaming specs are likely always going to be significantly ahead of their console counterparts - especially since PCs are modular allowing regular upgrades of key components. Want raw processing power then best buy a gaming PC. Plus PCs designed to operate/integrate with so many external peripherals that can add to the overall simming expericne. Again in case console users weren't aware, back in 2016 TSW was being talked about by DTG as the next generation PC train simulator. There was never any mention of consoles, until out of the blue in early 2018 (IIRC) with the sudden announcement TSW was coming to console. This was a bombshell dropped for PC players. Great for console players, but a bad day for PC users. That move probably effectively killed the possibility of a proper editor for the game, that had been promised to PC users at the outset of the planning stage for TSW.

    13. I believe a great many TS20xx players have been very happy with the game's HUD, and its various forms - plus the ability to mod it and customise the design. In TSW2 again, you get what you're given and that's that - no customizability. I hope that's something DTG might be able to do over time, allowing a choice of options (rather than a single set default). But again, because of consoles I doubt this is going to be possible.

    14. TS20xx has proved hugely popular with tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of players for more than a decade. It has a very loyal following, which at the end of the day no doubt can be put down to it being enjoyable. I've so tried to get into TSW and wanted to like it, I truly have. But the fact is I just don't enjoy it. I find TS20xx intuative, and just love the huge flexibility of the programme, and the endless variety of gaming opportunites. Perhaps in 10 years time TSWx might offer similar who knows. But it's focus on equal multiplatform use, plus being so closed shop (to many 3rd party developers, and individual players) currently makes this look unlikely. We'll see!

    My perceived obvious negatives for TS2021 when comapred to TSW2

    1. Whilst the graphics over time have markedly improved in TS2021, by modern gaming standards they're now pretty dated. Though with all the extra add-on enhancement packs/tools like Railworks_Enhancer the graphics can still look pretty darn good. However, no doubt about it TSW2 looks very pretty indeed, in fact some of the locos look stunning - beautiful exterior modelling. Not as quite as good interior-wise but still a very high standard indeed. The DTG artists should be very proud of themselves.
    .
    2. Unfortunately TS2021 has significant performance issues with busier more complex demanding routes, even after the 64 bit core upgrade. Tile stutter being a very big irritant for many players (would be fantastic if DTG could somehow reduce this problem, even if no other performance improvements possible to the old core game engine). And big fluctations in FPS causing signficant lag, is also sometimes a major handicap. And yes whilst TSW2 has had its own optimisation problems, I think most would agree overall performance is better than that found in TS2021. Though at times the routes are pretty quiet 'worlds', with limited AI traffic and other world activites (car traffic, people traffic, air/boat traffic etc..) - so it will be interesting to see just how well TSW2 copes as increasing numbers of such assets are added to rotues as the game evolves.

    3. I guess lack of first person walking, if that's you thing (see counter argument point 11 above), exploring around the track & stations, and through trains - is an issue for TS2021. If you really want to walk the entire length of a 1/2 mile+ freight train to manually play around with the coupling hoses, or wagon brakes you can (why!! lol). Or to manually pull point levers etc..

    4. No hidden collectables or other hidden things to find, by lots of walking everywhere. Is that a negative for TS2021, I'm not so sure. Funnily enough for a train simulator I just want to drive trains. I have nothing against the opportunity to immerse oneself in such exploration - but it does seem to be coming at the expense of driving. Limited development time per DLC means something always has to give. So long as it (possibly) continues to detract from route development proper, I will always see this as a negative feature, rather than a positive. Should one day, DTG be able to effortlessly incorporate both, thereby keeping all players happy, including those that prefer not driving trains ;), then great!

    5. Sorry TSW2 fans, I'm struggling for more clear negatives of TS2021 compared to the newer 'sim'. But hopefully the above list gives a little insight into why TS20xx has (and I strongly suspect will contine to have for some time to come) such a loyal following of long term players so very devoted to the sim. Not ignoring the small little fact, many have poored thousands of $ into the game over the years. It would have to take something exceptional, in terms of successor game, for many TS fans to make that full jump over to the new offering. Having no editor nor steam trains certainly won't help encourage such a transition. We'll perhaps have to reassess come TSW3. Cheers. :)
     
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  47. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    There are of course all those people who can’t be doing with the endless faffing that the older train sims involve and just like a nice self-contained product, even if it is more limited. Since I dumped Trainz (similar to TS in many ways) I’ve spent much less time tinkering in config files, searching for assets I need, trying to get things to work and all manner of ‘not actually driving trains‘ stuff, and I get to drive trains all the time in TSW. Hurrah for the tinkerless train sim. For people who like to tinker and don’t mind the faff there are the others. Hurrah for the others. I think I would still do the same if I was on PC and had TS instead of Trainz on a Mac and then discovered TSW. I may not have uninstalled it but I wouldn’t have spent any more money on it because TSW is straightforward and much more to my liking.

    And it’s not because I’m not into trains as much as others, just that I’m not into tinkering about making content, scenarios, reskins, and all the dependencies hunting to make content I’ve acquired work. Everyone has the choice and everyone is different. Everyone ‘train sims’ in a different way. It doesn’t really matter if people who like TS don’t like TSW as much, or the other way round. It’s neither here nor there really.
     
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  48. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    If anything illustrates your lack of experience with Train Simulator, this sentence is it.
     
  49. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    What's your source of this information?
     
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  50. TSWx

    TSWx Active Member

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    If you quote something then make sure that you quote the whole sentence, otherwise it could mean something completely different. So I was saying that I suspect due to minor leght and variety TSW isn't selling that good [in comparison to TS]
     

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