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Tsw: Switching In The Subdivision!

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Small bugs will always get through and that is fine the problem is the bigger bugs that seem to get passed the team only for us to find them, I myself is not saying they do not test, it's the effort that is put into testing to find those bug before it reaches us.
     
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  2. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes - you probably have. And you do appear to be quite prejudiced... at times... I actually quite like your humour, by the way, most of the time. But, I am not keen on the anti-console player Fascism though. And I use that F-word advisedly.

    I am a PS4 player, when it comes to TSW. It's actually quite a neat machine, and I happen to be a fairly well-aged engineer that is reasonably tech savvy, and I have been so for about thirty years. PS4 is absolutely useless for TS2020, but it is ideal for TSW. Really really nice - to sit on the sofa. No keyboard needed (thankfully), just a reasonably-well mapped DS4, which is a joy to use for controlling trains, and going for a walk-about. I enjoy TSW on PS4 - and I don't understand why some PC players can't handle that.

    The ironic thing is that console players of TSW are the people that are supporting the financial viability of DTG to support TSW on PC, and TS2020 on PC. So, you (or, well, the people that actually use TSW and TS2020 on PC), should probably give console players a lot more respect, and some thanks.
     
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  3. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Aaah yes. Free speech = bad. Of course. Well done Sir.

    Look, I have absolutely nothing against 2nd/3rd party DTG partner programme people making stuff for TS2020 on PC, and not testing it very much. That's absolutely fine. When you build a model of a loco, texture it, anchor somebody else's out-of-date generic script to bits of it, and put it up for sale, at a random price... that's great. Really. I have no problem with that at all. It's actually quite cool - because you genuinely get a lot of variety and innovation, etc. And you can't test for millons of configurations of PC, with various versions of various routes...etc. I get that - you'd rather be developing the next partially tested loco, and selling that. It's okay by me.

    TSW is different. TSW on PS4 - a wonderful closed system for development, is different. You can easily optimise and test for PS4 - and knock out cracking software. I'd therefore expect stuff appearing on PS4 to be tested. Properly tested. That's all. Don't care about PC much (although my new sim-dedicated PC will no doubt have TS2020 on it - and probably some of your stuff too... and I look forward to buying it from you).
     
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  4. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    What i mean is, every 2nd post is yours. You can stop it now. We all know what you want. You dont need to tell it again an again. I believe even DTG was reading it more than twice. So your mission is successful and over now :D
     
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  5. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    True, but in the case of OSD, I really didn't expect to see 50% of the mapped area turn out to be one massive bug. How did they miss that...? Seriously...? How was that possible...? How come not one single person noticed...?

    Do you see what I mean?
     
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  6. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Active Member

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    Have you a very hard time not writing. You have to account for half of everything here.
    so tired when I see your name that I don't want to be here soon. and that must apply to dovetail as well
     
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  7. Mr T

    Mr T Well-Known Member

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    You fell through a hole in the world? Then what happened? Where abouts in the map is this hole?
    Bug? It's no bug, DTG have blocked it out on purpose. Did you not see Dimitri's post? (page 9)
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
  8. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Well... to be honest... I think you are right. It would be great to be doing something else. For instance...

    I'd very much prefer to be running the DB BR 155 on RSN (on PS4), and enjoying the wonderful sound as it enters tunnels.

    But I can't. Because it gets silenced. And do you know why that it is?

    It is because nobody tested the DB BR 155 through tunnels, on RSN, on PS4. That's why. Which is really odd, because you only need to run anything on RSN for a few minutes... and you'll go through a tunnel.

    And despite very many people asking for the tunnel sound bug with the DB BR 155 to be fixed.... nobody bothered to fix it - and it has been like that for years.....!
     
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  9. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    I have nothing against console players the game, but as a PC player I know that a lot of the stigma is that console players want TSW to be more like a "game" rather than a "simulator". The introduction of action points, medal, and journey mode are often pointed to. I don’t believe this is accurate and anybody should be able enjoy the game how they want to regardless of what you play on. Also, as a side note, TS2020 is essentially irrelevant to DTG at this point and they are only keeping it alive because so many third party devs are still doing wonders with it. Most of the dlc released on Steam for it are made by third party devs.
     
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  10. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    @synthetic-angel You probably are a nice person IRL so don't take this personally...but for the love of god you need to set your forum post machine frequency setting down a few notches (while you're in those settings lower the word count limiter).

    I swear I have read the exact same things from you on 3 or 4 occasions (often in the same thread) and if I read one more time about your DB155 PS4 tunnel sound bug I will go (slightly more) insane.

    Chill my brother
     
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  11. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    It was on a overpass between Aldershot and Burlington I fell to the road below wasn't able to find away back into the map.
     
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  12. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    *wave* (no smiley there to do) ;):D

    Cant see anything bad. It's not the loco (i would say).
     
  13. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    LOL.... I am mostly having a bit of fun.... ;-)

    I really don't want to drive people more insane.... but I think that giving the DB BR 155 PS4 tunnel bug a decent bit of exposure, might help encourage someone to start testing the loco, and then fix it. It is, after all, a super-deluxe-premium loco, and priced as such. So I'd like it to work. And then I will be able to go away for a bit - maybe forever... the loco could be that good... ;-)
     
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  14. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    Well thats worse lol.
     
  15. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Well-Known Member

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    I did the same in NTP near a bridge with a road under it. Its a tiny hole so no particular bother, and easily one of those oh well moments. Funny though ;)

    On a more serious note, I hope that DTG can use this release as a learning point. Hindsight is not a valid dissection tool- instead they must look at their processes and ask 'what could we have done differently, what outcone would we have been happy with, what processes do we need to change, what defences do we need to put in to our processes to stop this happening again'..
    And finally- 'how do we regain the trust of our customer base'. I humbly suggest that sending Dmitri out with a fairly mediocre explanation that suggests the closed off area is just a scenic area is not a great change of direction thus far.

    Come on people- sort it out!! Listening to your customers and/or showing them that you are meaningfully doing so is not that hard! Giving Dmitri a company line like the one evidenced earlier is not good enough, and if its not the conpany line then where is it..

    Good product let down by company processes. A great pity.
     
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  16. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    I know exactly where this is. Right outside Huddersfield. Same happened to me. I’ve also had it at Floral Park on LIRR and at Langerfeld Yard on RRO.
     
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  17. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I too had the same problem on that route with a bridge and one of the tunnels as well. All be it small it's funny you're walking along and happen to find that one spot they did not sew up.
     
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  18. Mr T

    Mr T Well-Known Member

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    Yep, it wasn't the news we were wanting to hear unfortunately. It doesn't sound like DTG will be opening up the areas either which is a shame.
     
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  19. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    I fell off a bridge on NEC. I can't remember where but it took me out of map.
     
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  20. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    Lol I wanna try that. Do you have any idea where it was?
     
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  21. cabnz

    cabnz Member

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    I have mentioned in a few different forums plus my review on Steam that this has been 'False Advertising'. Matt said on the Pre-Release video that you can drive wherever you want without being judged. The manual shows you can drive in the area we are all talking about, and now we are told we were never meant to be able to from the start? That just shows how much they have lied to us!

    I have lost all faith in what they say now and I'll never Pre-Order again. And just so you know, I have supported this game right from the beginning and I have purchased all DLC addons for it. I want to continue supporting it but I'm finding it hard right now. I will still buy another DLC but only after the release and if it's any good.

    I truly think we have beeen deceived with this latest release and they are trying to backtrack by putting out a pathetic apology which in the end just confirms that they were deceiving us by telling lies about what you could, or should I say, can't do or go, in this DLC.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  22. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    If it is true, say, that everyone at DTG knew what was happening with OSD, then the truly scary thing for me would be that they were prepared to take a gamble, and hope that nobody would notice what they had done. Or even worse, that their respect for their customers is so very low, that they expected that nobody would notice.

    I don't think that everyone in DTG knew what was happening - at least, not at the same time. The result that was produced - last week's publication of OSD - looks to me like something that was produced from several very isolated and disconnected silos, patched together at the last minute. They must surely know that the community here can't be fooled that easily, as most of the people here are very "intelligent customers".
     
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  23. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    This whole thing is very disappointing. I was quite looking forward to exploring the industrial area. When it was first mentioned I looked on Google Earth and was amazed at the maze of tracks threading between buildings and across roads. It reminded me of Trafford Park, here in the UK which was very similar until recently when the lorries took over and the tracks were ripped up. The main line freight drag is of little interest to me, we already have Acton Yard to Reading and that lost it's appeal a long time ago. The impression that was given was that the industrial docks area would be included in full and available for free roam. If that wasn't on the cards it should have been made clear early on but that belief was actually reinforced on the live stream the day before it was released! I've watched a few videos and the route actually looks pretty interesting but without the Hamilton area, it's not for me unfortunately. If I'd bought it and discovered it wasn't what I expected I'd be very angry and being on PlayStation I probably wouldn't have got a refund easily. It's very important to get the pre launch advertising accurate and truthful otherwise people end up getting annoyed and possibly out of pocket.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  24. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I think it was more of a misunderstanding than a lie.
     
  25. cabnz

    cabnz Member

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    Definitely not a misunderstanding - Not with the comments that were made on the Pre-Release Video and the Manual.
     
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  26. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I sort of agree with you..... but.... a professional business should have control mechanisms in place to make sure that any "misunderstandings" within the business become understandings within the business, before they are allowed to escape into various online stores.... and well before they start to sell anything....

    Because if those sorts of misunderstandings, are allowed to go on sale, they start to become a bit illegal.....

    And the longer those misunderstandings (say - the current marketing materials on the PlayStation Store, and the YouTube DevStream) are allowed to circulate externally, then the more illegal the misunderstandings become. This post is meant to be helpful.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  27. Callum B.

    Callum B. Active Member

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    Regardless of whether it was intentional or not (i.e., lie or misunderstanding, respectively), it was still false advertising[1].

    [1]From Merriam-Webster, the Legal Definition of False Advertising: the crime or tort of publishing, broadcasting, or otherwise publicly distributing an advertisement that contains an untrue, misleading, or deceptive representation or statement which was made knowingly or recklessly and with the intent to promote the sale of property, goods, or services to the public.
     
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  28. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yep. It's fairly stark.

    And if you can convince an expert, say, a Trading Standards Officer at Medway Council that the evidence points to this sort of thing, then you might reasonably expect them to do something about it...
     
  29. cabnz

    cabnz Member

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    Well said :)
     
  30. cabnz

    cabnz Member

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    I think if they learn from this one then everything should be ok for the future but if they do something like this again, I think something more serious has to be done. Let's just hope they learn from this one.
     
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  31. Callum B.

    Callum B. Active Member

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    I have come to appreciate your sense of humour. Your dryness is certainly not for everyone, but I do applaud you for simultaneously speaking as an activist for fixing the BR 155 and transforming it into a running joke! Don't let them get to you (not that you seem prone to breaking down under criticism, of course), I think your contributions are wonderfully well-thought and -balanced and you are not afraid to speak against the grain. ;)

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  32. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes - this is exactly my view. When it comes down to it, everyone wants the best for DTG, so that they can make a great Train Sim World game. That includes me. So - they get this one for free - I am trying to help show them where the edge is.... (helped by quite a few other people, as it seems....)....

    ...of course - they shouldn't necessarily trust me. They could get legal advice, on their current approach, and they can then assess the risks, and decide whether they want to take them. It's all part of the fun of running a business.

    But I would say this - to be clear - that I believe that the following things present an ever-escalating risk to DTG, the longer they are allowed to continue:

    - continuing to have a DevStream video online that says that you can fully explore Hamilton
    - any marketing materials on any website or store that are not revised to reflect the new "understanding" of what the product actually is
    - any published manuals that are grossly misleading
    - any reluctance to refund anyone, at any time
    - any sort of lack of clarity in communications regarding what has happened, and what will happen next

    But then again, I am probably just an average punter that probably knows nothing much at all.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  33. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    This is my speculation: DTG wanted to put 100% of the harbor area in OSD, but when they realized how behind they were and that the deadline wouldn’t be met if the continued developing it, they (DTG) said they’d rather “hide” the harbor area rather thank make it accessible, so supposedly so the customer doesn’t see the mistake DTG made in the manufacturing of this dlc;)
     
  34. Mr T

    Mr T Well-Known Member

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    You could be right. If it was intentional to block areas from the start, it doesn't make sense to lay all of the tracks. Having them there makes the route map look bigger than it is but that's about the only benefit I can see. In the end that just added to the deception.

    EDIT: The other thing I thought of is development got stopped because of some legal / licensing / other reasons which prevents them from modelling those areas. I don't know if this is a real thing or not (or just in my head). If that's the case then we may never get access to those prohibited areas.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  35. basementjack

    basementjack New Member

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    I'm getting here a bit late, but to TrainSim-Dmitri:

    1 - I appreciate the update
    2 - The route has been quite enjoyable to me, and I think some of this conversation overshadows that this route has quite a lot to offer in it's current form.
    3 - Re the bounding issue - Maybe an artist could go in and put in a chainlink fence around the bounding area just so we know in free roam where the world 'ends' so we don't get kicked out. They could even put a sign on the fence asset that says something like "area contaminated"

    4- Unrelated, but would love to see an add on passenger loco for this map, and if in the process of all the cleanup, they added an extra station or two to the north, that'd be amazing.
     
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  36. BigMountain555

    BigMountain555 Well-Known Member

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    This was definitely not a misunderstanding. It sure seems like another word which starts with "mis." When I heard people complaining about the short route length, I was disappointed. What sold me was their description of the Industrial Zones. When I saw the map I was very pleased... until I found out that we cannot use half of it.

    The response from DTG to this forum was unsatisfactory at best. They owned up to their mistakes, but never offered to remedy the situation. Simply republishing an edited map with the sections removed does nothing to alleviate those of us who spent money on a product which contained misleading descriptions.

    After sitting silent for so many months, I finally see why there is so much negativity here. There are so many outstanding items on both TSW and TS that they simply never address. For example the issue for the TGV on Train Simulator. Over a year has passed and all we hear every few months is the same old promise to address.

    They really should do more for us than a basic apology, new shrunken map, or refund. Asides from the misleading promotion of the route, it really is a nice route so far. The whole fiasco was not a misunderstanding. The evidence lives online.
     
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  37. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I do not think that was a misunderstanding either both Matt and Dmitri had the opportunity on the live stream to show the map and explain then what was not accessible. I do not remember when watching the stream that was mention of it.

    None the less Dmitri has posted a apology today which is a start and a step in the direction for this route and new content down the line.q
     
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  38. bobsr

    bobsr Member

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    There was no "misunderstanding" of what was going on, as far as this route was concerned. DTG probably have an start, and end period when an route has to be completed. If they can finish the route, as originally agreed upon, that's good. If they cannot finish the route, within the designated time period, they then lock off what cannot be done in that time period. They will not tell us, the customers, that the route is not going to be finished, as advertised. Instead, they will continue to sell us, the customers, the original advertising BS. We the customers, then, find out upon delivery, of said route, that it is not what was advertised. So, we, the customers, complain. DTG take a few days, and reply with an stock answer, and some fixes of bugs, to placate the customers. Now, I am not blaming the representatives that work for DTG, because, they have to do as they are told. Because, after all, they are only employees. Now, I have the route, about four days. I have not used it yet. If they did not respond to the complaints on this forum, I was going to refund it. They finally responded, and, because of the reviews of quite a few forum members, that what DTG did deliver, even though it was not as advertised, they did well. After the way that this was done, I will never, ever again, Preorder a route from DTG. I will wait until the TSW community review it.
     
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  39. A_normal_name

    A_normal_name Member

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    #FIXTHE155
     
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  40. The editor would suffice.
    This functionality would lead in two well-defined directions.
    Or maybe that's exactly what DTG doesn't want ...:cool:
     
  41. Samo1

    Samo1 Active Member

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    Not another No Mans Sky?
     
  42. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    If it was a misunderstanding, which I doubt it really was, then this proves how much of a fragmented company DTG is. If they can’t even communicate to each other in house, then there’s no hope of them communicating to their customers.

    In fact to me it seems more like ‘how long can we get away with it’ until people realise and want and explanation. Then a half hearted excuse comes along a few days later. It simply isn’t good enough.

    This won’t be the last time something like this happens I suspect. Especially if people think DTG’s excuses are acceptable.

    I have little to no hope in DTG now. It is a gamble whether you will receive an acceptable bit of DLC or one riddled with bugs which aren’t fixed for well over a year. There simply is no structure, quality control or contingency plans with this company.

    Always has and always will be a company which has no motivation to improve.
     
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  43. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    For me, this is the saddest part of the whole saga. Very many people got very excited about this OSD DLC.

    People complained about route length (which I still think is not the only measure), and people complained about no "GO Transit" (which, again is not the only measure - but it is perplexing why they would start developing this route if they knew they could not get legal perms for the passenger stuff... if that is actually the case...).

    And yet, some people were still excited (and they should have been, in my opinion, given what was being marketed.... and described on the DevStream...). Even I started to help to support and hype up the route, after some initial sceptism about testing, given that the DB BR 155 has still not been tested in tunnels on RSN on the PS4.

    But when the greatest advocates for the OSD route are then punched in the stomach.... then the horror... the complete and utter horror of it all becomes more exposed. It's like in Apocalypse Now, when the crazy Colonel (Kurtz) explains what it is like to run dodgy missions in Cambodia.... watching the "snail crawl across the edge of a straight razor....". The inevitability of a fantasy... turning into a nightmare.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  44. Schnauzahpowahz

    Schnauzahpowahz Well-Known Member

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    Well then...

    Not much of a shocker, relinquish team members building new content to add accessible trackage on OSD?
    That was a fat chance of happening


    So from: no manual on the Baby Bullet to a ficticious manual for OSD :o

    Dont get me wrong, i still like and will continue to utilize (as much as one can) OSD

    But, for next time DTG... money talks, bs walks ;)
     
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  45. BigMountain555

    BigMountain555 Well-Known Member

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    They have lost the faith of the community. I will never pre-order again, if I even order another DLC. The pre-order discount was a joke anyway.

    I have never seen this sort of poor treatment of paying customers by other companies. There are some other simulation games that I play and I have never seen such issues surrounding them.

    The simple fact that there is a growing list of items that have not been remedied meanwhile new content keeps being churned out (with more problematic items) sure makes it seem like DTG does not give a damned about its customers.
     
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  46. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, I think that this is a sensible precaution. From now on - never ever pre-order or buy DLC until you really know what it is. And you can't know what it is until you see independent reviews from people that you trust. So you have to wait for one of those people to take a risk and buy it first. Otherwise you will just be relying on all of the "presentation" that DTG provide on the product pre-release, including anything that they choose to "present" on DevStreams, etc., and these presentations might fall short of the complete truth.

    This is what it means when people lose trust in a company - you lose sales - you lose CASH.

    DTG are not the worst with this, to be fair. Bethesda managed to go much further with Fallout 76. It's a shame because their approach was "We have a fabulous product (Fallout) that has made a lot of money and now has a massive loyal fanbase. Shall we make more reputation-enhancing fabulous product, or shall we focus on exploiting the fanbase in one last fire-and-forget pathetic excuse for a product, but tell them all beforehand that it will be fabulous...? You know what - let's take the really bad option - what can go wrong....?"

    They do care, but their company is probably built from a structure that is based on TS2020, and that structure is likely to be very "process light". Maybe it wasn't necessary to put in any sort of product management structure, when you are basically hosting a community project, with some almost bespoke franchises making individual sales on a very small scale, maybe with a very close customer relationship, with low expectations. But it is completely different when you launch to XBox and PS4 though - for example, if you sell a DB BR 155 on PS4, at a premium price, then PS4 players would expect it to work, flawlessly, on the route it was designed for (RSN), in the tunnels on that route (which was never a surprise), on PS4.
     
  47. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    If you mention the 155 one more time...
     
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  48. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately I can only give you one like.
     
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  49. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    The next few DLC’s will really show us what direction DTG want to take TSW imo. Let’s hope they can deliver good quality routes which shows us they still “have it”. It’s make or break time DTG, do you wanna step up and prove to us you’ve got what it takes or are you happy to produce average routes while insulting your customers?

    I can’t pre-order dlc as I’m a console player but given refunds on PSN are close to impossible to get I’ll NEVER buy a route until I know what others think of it first.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  50. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that I have mentioned the 155, ever, on these Forums. I don't tend to commute between Chatham and Maidstone... and I certainly wouldn't do it on a bus....

    I'd rather catch a train. You'd also avoid going through that dreadfully-named place called Borstal, if you go by train instead. I don't even care if the bus is a more direct route, because it takes you through Borstal.

    When I was younger, my Dad wanted to buy a house on Borstal Road, Borstal - and I had to tell him not to be so silly, because "Borstal" is also the name for a prison for children, and there was no way I was going to live with having "Borstal" in my address. I would rather run away from home, and become a beggar on the streets of Slough.

    Thankfully, none of that came to pass, and I am now happily living miles and miles away from Borstal, wondering when somebody is going to get around to fixing the DB BR 155.
     
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