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Tsw: Switching In The Subdivision!

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Further to my post above, I have now posted a Poll at this location:

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...g-for-mis-marketing-the-oakville-d-l-c.20865/

    This is because I believe that there is a case to answer regarding the original marketing of the Oakville DLC, and that this is being compounded by the continued existence of a number of questionable materials, that could have been taken down without much controversy.

    You might have a different view - and you can make your view known, either way, via the Poll as linked above.

    I will now be spending the weekend on the Oakville DLC... which wasn't my original plan. Hopefully, in the very least, I will be able to get some lovely night-time snowy high contrast headlight-beamy refection screenshots out of it... ;-D
     
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  2. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    I have been a fan of trains for a long time.
    I started with Railworks (which I still have).
    I pretty much bought all the DLC from TS, which I uninstalled to put TSW.
    I have all of the TSW DLCs including the last one, which I got reimbursed for.
    Or I am disappointed, it is in the attitude of DTG, who do not care about their customers.
    Never dialogue, never forecasts. Very few fixes for their many bugs.
    It was like that in TS, and I thought that with TSW, they would have improved.
    I would like them to change their behavior and give us a little better finished dlc. But having known them for a long time, I fear the worst.
    I'm going to go back with my trucks, or there, bugs are rare, and fixed quickly, if there are any.
     
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  3. jerry

    jerry New Member

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    Dovetail and Giants must have similar testing styles. Twice now, Giants have released DLC for Farming Simulator 19 with equipment that can't be refueled. Run out of fuel, gotta sell it and buy a new one.
     
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  4. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Active Member

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    I get the anger being reverberated in this forum, but the idea of spending money to take legal action against dovetail for a virtual route... is so far removed from the reality of how things works and tends to play to a hyperbole of opinion.

    This is also why we have things like reviews and forum-boards in place. You vote with your wallet and opinion. Current reviews for this DLC are now approaching 50:50... thats less money Dovetail make, and stimulus for them to consider how not to waste their time in future (and we can all agree that track-laying, research and rushed propwork was a massive waste of time.)
     
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  5. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    I think this the most reasonable take i've seen on this topic.
     
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  6. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    To play the other side of the argument, it doesn't matter what the product is. Virtual or otherwise. This is real money being exchanged here. That is the reality and that is how the law will see it. To take your point to its logical conclusion, you are pretty much saying DTG can do what they want with impunity.

    Your point about reviews and forum boards is predicated on customers having already been duped into spending their real money in order to write a review and being willing to spend their time in actually writing.
     
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  7. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think hyperbole is the significant word here.
     
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  8. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Which in itself...is quite ironic...

    Almost limitlessly, endlessly, infinitely ironic, in an expansive landscape of irony and hyperbole. Almost an irony unto itself, I'd say. It's like two ironies for the price of one.

    Oooh - that reminds me, I think I have left the iron on....
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
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  9. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Active Member

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    Not really what I said at all. You are free to take legal action. But I can guarantee that none of you probably will.
     
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  10. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Oooh - are you absolutely sure about that...? Are you really very very sure? Guarantee huh?

    And what recompense do you offer if your guarantee is broken? Or is that a meaningless guarantee, that you don't intend to make good on?

    Funny thing.... words.... don't you think...?
     
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  11. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I agree, I suspect a lot of it is bluster.

    Personally if someone did and TSW was damaged by it, I certainly wouldn't see them as some kind of hero, quite the opposite!
     
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  12. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    You could be right. It could be the kind of bluster which is a bit like taking actions that are contrary to the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, and then having someone report it to the Trading Standards department at Medway Council, in the UK - a short ride away on the 155 bus from certain offices in Chatham.

    Maybe.
     
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  13. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Active Member

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    I look forward to your first filings! :) I presume your position from your listed poll has now changed in response to this thread, and will now seek justice using the full arm of the law for this clearly personal conflict caused by Dovetail.

    Don't mind me, I'll just be driving this lovely S7 stock along the metline from Justtrains!
     
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  14. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I know where Medway is thanks, I have an aunt just outside Rochester!
     
  15. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    My position has not changed. My position is that:

    1. If there is a clear signal from the community (in the Poll) that action is wanted right now, regarding the Oakville DLC, then I will do everything possible to arrange for this to take place, especially since this is assisted by DTG's own continued publication of marketing materials that could be considered to fall quite short of the current requirements of UK law. I have made this commitment, and I would stick to it.

    2. If there isn't a clear indication for action, then I will personally give DTG a free pass this time - and I will point out to DTG the extent of feelings expressed by DTG's own most loyal and devoted fanbase (so, a 50/50 split in this cohort will look quite serious in my opinion.....!!!). I will then explain to everyone what they can do, if they want to individually complain anyway, and how to do it effectively (as it does take a bit of work - and you have to explain what TSW actually is, for a start....). Although frankly - if people go on online and research the process, then they can make their own complaint themselves, it is a fairly easy process. I have laid out the original post in the Poll in a way that can be copied and pasted, and then slightly edited into a complaint, if people want to do this (and I designed it that way, for this explicit potential purpose).

    However - if this is the case (outcome 2), then the next time DTG introduces a DLC that falls well short of the described content, then the first time that they will hear about formal action instigated by me will be when the Trading Standards department at Medway Council knock on their door and visit their offices. It won't be a No Surpises approach next time - because frankly.... they have now had the opportunity to reconsider their future approach.

    Let me know if you still have any questions or doubts.

    EDITED TO ADD: There is no personal conflict. I just want DTG to do better. To make brilliant stuff with confidence, with enough confidence that they don't have to, um... "over-state" the benefits and features of what they make. And I'd like them to test stuff before they sell it. The Oakville DLC is not as bad as the horrific DB BR 155 on RSN on PS4, but it is in the same ball-park.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
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  16. Lombra

    Lombra Active Member

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    Manual still not updated. :/

    If you're not going to update the manual for another year, then simply take it down. Or even take that one page out. There's no excuse for this. It does not take a week to change some lines into dotted ones.
     
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  17. grahamsarea18

    grahamsarea18 New Member

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    I paid thru Microsoft Xbox one gift card. Im not getting a refund. Im guessing no one has ever received a refund from Microsoft. It's just sad that all of the track isnt accessible.
     
  18. grahamsarea18

    grahamsarea18 New Member

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    I understand your frustration. But it sounds like you want to ruin DTG for all. Just for your personal gain. While hiding behind a thin veneer of "wanting them to do better" how about you have more patients before buying. And then ALL of your grievances would be answered and out in the open. Before you bought the latest DLC.
     
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  19. BigMountain555

    BigMountain555 Well-Known Member

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    One should not have to have more "patients" before purchasing an item. One should have a reasonable expectation when purchasing an item based on the description. In this case, the map in the manual was misleading. The statements made in the release article were misleading. The statements made during the live stream were misleading.

    Everyone wants them to do better. I think the goal is not to destroy the company, but simply to encourage them to do what's right... remedy the situation and be a bit more professional with the promotional materials in the future.
     
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  20. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, each of these three items were all sailing "just over the edge" - they could all give you a wrong impression by themselves, but you might not feel utterly cheated if you just saw one of them. But when you combine two of them, or all three - they are mutually reinforcing - and they give you a completely different idea of the scale of the product - and the in-game map (showing a supposedly active expansive trackage of yards) is the worst bit - maybe that was meant to be a horror of a rotten Easter egg for people to find later...

    Taken together these marketing materials all make OSD appear to have double the content that it really has. And to make it worse, this is in the face of pre-release concern expressed about the presumed lack of content (route length and freight only), whether these concerns were originally reasonable or not (and I thought they were not reasonable concerns, at the time - and I actually defended DTG on these points, pre-release).

    But note: Some people (probably most people) will not have directly read the Forum, DTG's website, the game manual, or the pre-release DevStream - and for PS4, this DLC currently has a full 5/5 star rating (low sample size, but that's still pretty darn good.... !).

    Precisely. This is almost exactly my view. I would add that I would like DTG and content developers to effectively test their product as well - just for a couple of hours, across all platforms where the content is released - in order to prevent the sort of fiasco we got with the broken DB BR 155 on RSN on the PS4, for example.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
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  21. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    You have every right to a refund in this case. Don't let the idea that maybe it is rare for people to get refunds from Microsoft put you off asking for one. This is a clear-cut candidate for refunds - just give them a link to this Forum... and the manual, and the DevStream, and the DTG "Oh Candada" advertorial.
     
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  22. xD 2Bad4You

    xD 2Bad4You Well-Known Member

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    Its not that rare to get a refund. Have you actually tried?
    https://beta.support.xbox.com/contact-us -> Contact Us ->Subscriptions and billing -> I want to request a refund.
     
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  23. BigMountain555

    BigMountain555 Well-Known Member

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    Despite feeling cheated and mislead, I should mention that the route is nice. I love the visuals and enjoy running the locomotives. It is a fantastic route outside of the incorrect map. The in-game map shows so much inaccessible trackage and switches yet the game kicks you out if you pass certain unmarked points. That is misleading and wrong in my opinion.

    The rest of the DLC is great.
     
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  24. doc_woods

    doc_woods Active Member

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  25. Thelonius16

    Thelonius16 Active Member

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    That's kind of how I felt. I preordered it because I'm interested in North American content. When I looked at Google maps I was skeptical that they would include everything in Hamilton. I kind of assumed we would get one or two sections and the rest would not be modeled. So, basically, my guess was about in line with what we actually got. Theoretically, I should have been happy with the results.

    However, on the stream they showed the map and I thought, "wow, that's a ton. This will be awesome." I even made a comment about that in the stream. Then, shortly after release it became obvious that a lot of that stuff will not be accessible. This made me refund the DLC after playing for about 30 minutes. I should have been completely satisfied with what I got because it's exactly what I expected, but I don't care for the fact that my hopes were raised for about 24 hours.

    I am sure I will buy it again when it goes on sale or as part of TSW 2021. But for now I'm happy I refunded it.
     
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  26. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yup - totally senseless marketing. To me - and I really do mean this most earnestly - this should be a really good route for PS4 owners, as OSD is probably a good natural replacement for CSX:HH. In this sense, it would be a very well curated addition. And all the arguments about recycled CSX stuff actually have the opposite effect because I think that content would be most welcome for PS4 players - unless it's just me that thinks that...

    If OSD was marketed truthfully, and was demonstrated accurately (no cursors hovering over fake track in the DevStream....), then I think the atmosphere now would be very different.... people would be positively raving about the route (because some of it is really stunningly beautiful). But then there's the no-warning boundary kick-out to sour it again.... so they have a lot to do to fix the OSD route.

    Apart from anything else - from an optimisation perspective.... why would you have a load of operational track, which is picked up as live lines in the map widget, and then bury it under scenery....? Although you might not see this track... the GPU probably does see it, and works on it, loading textures and translating them in three dimensions in real time....checking to see if you will use it as a route... etc. A total waste. If the track was so redundant that you could put warehouses on it - then the track could have just been removed to free up GPU time..... time that could be used for drawing more wagons. ;-)

    Total Madness.

    I will eventually buy this OSD route. When it is fixed. When it is under £10, or part of a pack of three/four for £25. And only when the DB BR 155 is fixed to work on RSN on PS4. If DTG cannot fix the DB BR 155 (the most beautiful loco on TSW), then that would indicate that nobody really cares at all, about pride in their work.
     
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  27. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    UPDATE:

    It looks like DTG have taken down the pre-release DevStream from YouTube - so there is progress happening.

    You now get this:



    Which, at time of writing is a blank screen showing that the video is now behind a "private group" wall.
     
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  28. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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  29. doc_woods

    doc_woods Active Member

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    I'm sure that wasn't why I mentioned it ;);). But no, not when I last looked.

    I suspect the image would have to be something you could do without modifications to comply with the contest rules (so not the train-through-building but something you could see with the free camera would be fine).
     
  30. Mr T

    Mr T Well-Known Member

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    Ok, taking what Dimitri said at face value, this is what I think happened:

    [DTG Manager]: I'm announcing here at the meeting we're going to do just parts of the Hamilton area, not all of it. Every one is in attendance except for the track layer. Ok, we'll pass on that info to him when he's back
    [Track Layer]: Ok, I've finished laying all the track
    [Asset Placer]: What? Didn't you get told it was just a partial yard area?
    [Track Layer]: Nope
    [Asset Placer]: That's Ok, we may as well keep it now that you've layed it all. We'll just put the buildings over it so you can't see past where you're not meant to go. It will look better on the map anyway.
    [Matt and Dimitri] Live stream time, I have here on the piece of paper to make sure we tell users about the yard restrictions. Ok, let's make sure we tell them that.
    (Piece of paper blows away and gets forgotten about)
    It doesn't sound to me like you'll ever buy OSD then ;)
     
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  31. BigMountain555

    BigMountain555 Well-Known Member

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    I've been playing TSW for a year and despite all the gripes I have seen written about them, I still looked at things enthusiastically. I still enjoy their products. I purchased every DLC for TSW.

    This latest fiasco has me feeling cheated. I have lost the respect I once had for them and cannot look at them the same way again. I can no longer recommend this franchise to other people.

    I will continue to play the sim, but will be very cautious about further purchases. They could have done something to make up for what they call a mistake and I consider misleading. Instead, all they seem to be doing is getting rid of any evidence of what occurred. Too bad the video is available from several sources.
     
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  32. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to believe that your potential "re-construction" of events (... a bit like what you see in some real-life TV crime shows...), is accurate. But I don't think this is what happened - and that's the worst bit. They must have known (D&M), in the video, that the the majority of the track was buried under a sloppily built industrial estate. Because they didn't take you there - deep into the mines of Moria.... And they didn't get kicked out of the map for driving to places that you could visit completely normally.

    Mistakes happen. Plans do not always go to plan. A risk can be taken by releasing a half-finished product, to test the water, and see how low you can go with missing customer expectations. It is possible that a phenomenal mis-communication happened inside DTG regarding what the state of the product was before it was released. Testers and QA and QC people might not always be on their "A game", or might miss glaring errors like half of the mapped area being broken, or they might just be scared to give honest feedback, or maybe they just get ignored. Or maybe, like with the DB BR 155 on RSN on PS4, there is no QA and testing at all (that is how it looks to me). All of these things can happen, especially if there is no process control whatsoever. But... what you don't expect...

    ......what you don't expect is..... to be told in a pre-release DevStream, that you can use an area to your heart's content... as a key feature in the game... when you can't. It's really quite horrible. And we can laugh about it and say things like "Oh well, what do you expect from DTG...?" ... but there comes a point, surely, when you can actually say... that really wasn't a reasonable thing to do.....
     
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  33. Rob Jansen

    Rob Jansen Well-Known Member

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    This thread is starting to be a little bit trolly and it is reaching the end of everything that can be said and it is getting repetitive in the meanwhile, I think people should just except that it isn't changing at all.
    If you are unhappy with the DLC, then either don't buy it or try to get a refund. Vote with your wallet people.

    Something that also gets old is the constant off-topic about that BR 155, at first it was funny but now every other post is about that and it is getting pretty annoying.
    All those post are getting repetitive and don't add value to the conversation, I would suggest to drop it.
    Again, vote with your wallet, if you dislike TSW or any of the DLC, then just ignore it, there is always the other Train Simulator version.
     
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  34. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I have a Mac and a PS4 - some of us don't have other options so we need this one to be good :)
     
  35. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure it was even funny at first!

    As you say if you don't want to give them money you don't have to keep purchasing add-ons, unless as stated you really want a train simulator and don't have a PC, then you don't have much choice.

    The amount of posts I have seen in the past where people are slating DTG and calling them all the names under the sun and then it turns out they go and purchase the next release!

    They have obviously made some errors with this release but it doesn't mean that every add-on before has been awful and hopefully they will be more inclined to not make the same mistakes in the future.
     
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  36. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    Enough with the BR155 stop spamming with it... it’s starting to be annoying
     
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  37. Mr T

    Mr T Well-Known Member

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    This thread will die sooner or later. However, you can bet the subject will be resurrected if DLC is released for OSD.
     
  38. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    100% agreed. The release of the broken DB BR 155 on PS4, as a specific add-on for RSN was never ever a funny thing to do. It was a disgusting thing to do. I am with you on this....!!! People complained for a bit. They were ignored. Some people complained a bit more. They were ignored. Then people started to forget. Years later the bug wasn't fixed - with no consequence for the incompetent developers of the loco. And what do you get as a result.... Well.... if you forget about things like the DB BR 155 then later on you get the Oakville DLC fiasco. If you allow the standards to drop away unchallenged , then there will be no standards in the future.

    We could bury today's issue, and consider the Oakville DLC as another "unfunny" mistake. A minor error. A trivial misunderstanding. A teeny weeny glitch. A slight deviation away from perfection. And then...eventually - as an unresolved issue from the past, one that shouldn't be brought up again... something it would be better to forget.... because there's some other new horror to complain about...

    This bit of your post I find a bit more objectionable. It is remarkable, and has inner beauty (like the creatures in Alien), because it acheives two things at the same time.... Firstly - I think that some people could consider it to be quite patronising to tell them that they have free choice on how to spend their money. I think most people already know that, and don't need anyone to remind them. But then - in the very next sentence....you complain about people exercising their choice to spend their own money....! That's like - wow - hypocrisy to the maximum and fullest extent possible....! Amazing stuff....! Truly remarkable....! Thank you - you really put a smile and expression of wonderment on my face.....! You're not related to Brian Cox, are you?
     
  39. Lombra

    Lombra Active Member

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    Not sure what you're saying here. You'd rather they kept the video with the misleading information up? I thought that's what we wanted to get away from.
     
  40. doc_woods

    doc_woods Active Member

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    I wouldn't be surprised if some/all of the missing areas get filled in alongside some DLC in future. Mostly because I suspect there's plenty of people on the non-management side that are privately pretty embarrassed at the incomplete state it was released in and who'd like to get it fixed. I'd then speculate that it's very difficult for them to justify spending time on fixing it to management, but a bit easier to justify doing it as part of on money-making new product.

    I could be completely wrong of course, and I certainly won't make any purchasing decisions based on this view, but it at least seems plausible to me
     
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  41. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I really don't think you can lecture people on sounding patronising, just ask Anthony! Also I wasn't complaining about how people spend their money, I just find it weird that some people basically say DTG are the devil incarnate and moan at them for being just in it for the money and then go and spend money on their products.

    Bottom line is that quite frankly I don't care what you think!
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
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  42. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Okay - I will ask him. You know, just in case you are not actually his official spokesperson.

    Ah. Okay. Well - if you think that is really a legitimate thing for you to complain about, then I guess everything is in scope for you to complain about. Like the the combination of oxygen and hydrogen. Hateful, isn't it?. Bloody compounds - poking their nose into everyone's lives by providing water..., etc..

    Oddly enough though, the thing that you seem to complain about the most, is when you see other people complaining.
     
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  43. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Back on topic....

    I think you are right. I think that the team on Oakville probably put in a HUGE amount of work into Hamilton. I was having a scoot around the Forum, and I found this post by Mr.P on the work:

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/dlc-cost-worth-it.20451/#post-113967

    He literally says:

    "How do you factor in the cost to build enormous yards like the one down in Hamilton in this case, a yard might account for "3 miles" of route length, but take as much as half the total time to make the route."

    Hamilton - half the total time to make the route (OSD). He went on to add:

    "Oakville Sub is primarily a switching route, with the enormous yard area in the south of the route at Hamilton, and then there are other yards along the way between Hamilton and Oakville that you can use as well. Plus, unlike a large more conventional yard like Cumberland on Sand Patch Grade, the track network in Hamilton is sprawling, crosses over, has tight curves, wye's, loops, and who knows what so moving around it requires some thought and planning - making it, in my view, very interesting indeed."

    And I wholeheartedly agreed with this view on value per mile (assuming, at the time, that what he said about OSD was factually correct....). He fairly strongly implies that the other yards along the route are secondary to the sprawling nature of Hamilton.

    Something has gone very wrong here, and not according to plan, and it might not be recoverable in the way some might (reasonably) want - because maybe they just can't get the assets into that concentrated space and get them to work with any performance (I think the TSW map tiles are a huge 512m x 512m, compared to 128m x 128m that you might get in a racing game - so x25 less dense - I don't know this for sure, but it's a guess based on some measurements I took a while back).
     
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  44. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Further to the post above, I have posted an updated (final) position on the Poll thread here:

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...mis-marketing-the-oakville-d-l-c.20865/page-2

    This includes three posts:

    - the results of the poll;
    - action that I will (not) be taking (yet); and,
    - guidance on action others can take if they still really want to.

    You should note that:

    - DTG removed the DevStream video on YouTube and on their Twitch account, and
    - DTG substantively modified the manual on Steam, for the Oakville DLC, to highlight the excluded yards.

    DTG has listened to you, and taken action regarding the Oakville DLC.
     
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