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Why Was The Driver Gender Balance Thread Locked?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by paulmurphy_88, Nov 20, 2019.

  1. paulmurphy_88

    paulmurphy_88 Member

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    Well? Censorship on a train sim forum? It was a perfectly valid topic of discussion.
     
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  2. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I'm interested to know too. It's one thing to lock a thread where the conversation seemed civil enough, but to provide absolutely no explanation is just going to frustrate people. What did we do wrong? Is all talk of gender banned? Who knows!
     
  3. simongilford

    simongilford Member

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    I can understand the developers don't want hoards of feminist SJWs and their beta-male White Knights descending on to the forum and calling us all misogynists and part of the patriarchy.

    Even the indisputable historical fact that physical jobs in the 1980s were far more likely to be done by men is not enough nowadays. And train driving was a physical job then, as most drivers served their time on shunters and uncoupling/coupling is physically hard work.

    But facts are not enough of an argument with identity politics and all the other 'woke' bullcrap.
     
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  4. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Active Member

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    PJMs little quip about bust sizes might have been a contributing factor. Just a guess..
     
  5. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    A comment saying "Please can we have more female drivers/engineers/technicians" is one thing. If it gets too "political" then I can see it would get locked out especially once it's been established that people might want that change enacted
     
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  6. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    If that was the cause then they are very touchy! It was really just a comical observation of the cloned female characters that appear in the game.

    And if that indeed was the cause all they needed to do was delete my post. Problem solved, carry on with the conversation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
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  7. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    #casualsexism...
    "It was just" is never a good reason for anything
    And now this post should probably be closed also :o
     
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  8. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Did it get any more political than, "We'd like more realism on our 80s British railway recreation"? If you started playing Battlefield 1 and the front line was full of busty, well dressed women, you'd raise the same questions.
     
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  9. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so, I thought it was quite interesting. If the thought was that my original comment was causing offence the fact that the thread still exists with my post still in it would indicate otherwise.

    Casual sexism! Although "It is just" your opinion since you don't know me I do find that slightly offensive!

    I think your definition of sexism maybe somewhat different to mine. There are many many more offensive remarks that can be made than trying to point out (in a light hearted way) the female characters in the game do appear to be modeled on what could be described as the perfect female figure. Perhaps they should be considered sexist in not depicting other shapes and sizes?

    Moderator now? I hope they don't since it would be nice to know the answer. Maybe I'll have to curb my comic quips. :(

    Anyway peace. :cool:
    We are going off at a tangent from railway related topics aren't we?
     
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  10. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Nah, ran it past three ladies in the office just to confirm if they would find such a thing about someones gender (so sexist) or if they would find it "just a joke" (none of them found it particularly funny) so maybe it's not about how YOU mean it, but how it's received. And to go on to then try to excuse it just exacerbates the issue for those affected by such things (which I imagine is neither you nor me)

    No, that was my opinion

    This whole post isn't related to railways really LOL

    Either way, there SHOULD be more general representation of race and gender (I'm hoping for a non-binary stone punk with a nose ring and a mohican myself) but that would be sexist, genderist, probably ageist, and with cultural appropriation
     
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  11. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Probably due to every single post somehow getting back to the editor in some form or another, like this one just did
     
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  13. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    May well be the case. But well... I suppose DTG know what they need to do make us stop asking in every second post on this forum. Tell us what's the hold-up. Simple as that.
     
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  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    You really believe that them saying what the issue may be will stop the endless cycle of people asking when, why, how and who???
    I doubt it
     
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  15. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Maybe not stop, but change it to something more constructive than is possible now. Far as I can see, DTG's (eg. Matt's) comments on why this or that feature can't be implemented as of now were usually well received. The sentiment always tends to be, "Ah, OK. Makes sense."

    With no word whatsoever, all we can do is assume, and those assumptions usually suppose laziness, incompetence, or plain malevolence, e.g., greed. "Do good and talk about it." So if somebody refuses to talk... well guess what they might be doing...
     
  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Different if someONE talks that way to a company which is outputting product.
    If a person says one thing then goes quiet I would say it's likely they're untrustworthy or doesn't have my best interests at heart, I would therefore distance myself from that person so they wouldn't get things from me. IN this case if I buy a product from a company I have to take that product on it's merits. None of the products sold say "comes with an editor"...
     
  17. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's that or an accurate representation of the actual 1983 British Rail staff. Across the rail industry in 2015, over 80% of the workforce was male and it was definitely more than that in 1983.

    Certainly, some variety in passenger figures would be welcome – in the interests of accuracy, maybe some punks tearing up the seats on the 101 and spraying anti-Thatcher graffiti up a 45 would add colour and get you the mohican you desire (you'd probably have to use your imagination regarding their gender identities) – but they wouldn't have been in the cab passing through Huddersfield.

    Hopefully DTG will give us a modern UK route next and all your diversity dreams will come true. :D
     
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  18. simongilford

    simongilford Member

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    Filed under 'things that didn't happen.'
     
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  19. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    Dmitri asked me to jump in on this thread.

    ... and honestly I have no idea where to start. :) Was there a question? :)
     
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  20. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I'd sum it up as follows:

    Why do the genders of the train crew represented in NTP for example, not reflect the demographics of the era? Is it a conscious decision on DTG's part to have a disproportionate number of female train crew or an accident of the coding?
     
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  21. stujoy

    stujoy Member

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    The initial question was why the thread on gender balance was closed. Was it the subject matter or the way the comments went?
     
  22. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I think the more important question, Matt, if you're going to answer one or the other, was the original one about why the 80s British Rail trains in NTP are all crewed by busty women in immaculate blouses, rather than dieselly, northern blokes, as would probably have been the case. :D

    The secondary question was people querying why that original thread got closed down. There was a bit of discussion about diversity and whatnot, but I don't remember it ever getting heated or disrespectful.
     
  23. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    It was a conscious creative decision to have equal balanced genders in all cases. It doesn't strictly follow the pattern of reality as you say, but I see no harm in there being a strong representation from both genders at all. Whether you like the character model that's been created or not, that's a personal opinion for you to have I guess :)

    It's supposed to be an approx 50/50 split though so if it's not, that'd be a bug :)

    As regards the thread closure - i'm afraid i've no idea, I purposefully stay well away from moderation tasks.

    Matt.
     
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  24. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    It's a problem for many players because they don't like their simulation games being used to further a political ideology. They play games to escape their reality and roleplay as a train driver.

    Players don't ask for anyone to be included or excluded, they just ask for a faithful depiction of reality, whether that's signals, scenery, trains or people. If you deviate from depicting reality, especially if it's to fulfil a political agenda, you end up alienating a lot more people than you'll please.

    If you want diversity in TSW how about recreating trains, routes and people from other countries in the World aside from the US and Europe? Or is diversity not profitable in that instance?
     
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  25. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    r/murderedbywords :D
     
  26. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Active Member

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    "creative decision"? In a 'simulator'? Thats seeking to replicate an era?
    All it does is ruin imnersion and therefore reduce the likelihood of future purchases by people for whom immersion is important.
    Doesnt seem that creative to me..
     
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  27. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, it does seem a little at odds with the whole ethos of the game. We can't use train x on route y because it didn't specifically happen in the period the route's set, but we get perfect gender equality across the fantasy world railway industry! I go back to my Battlefield 1 example - if you dived into a WW1 trench to escape gunfire and found it packed full of smartly dressed women, you'd be like, "Uhh, wut?"
     
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  28. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    One point nobody seems to have brought up yet: While it does certainly constitute an inaccuracy to have a lady on the secondman seat in the 80's, I must also say, I could barely care any less. Most of the time I'm busy driving.

    What DTG could change though is, give the second(wo)men a proper outfit, one that conplies with health and safety regulations - which I'm sure woolen tights and ballerinas do not.
     
  29. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    Again, all the female drivers are supposed to be wearing the same uniforms as the males - so invalid variants appearing are most definitely not intended :) I'll get it on a list to look at.

    Matt.
     
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  30. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Active Member

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    Authenticity..

    20191110111848_1.jpg
     
  31. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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  32. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly answering the original question but the whole discussion made me look a bit more into the history of female drivers - in the UK.

    Great respect to Karen Harrison in sticking at it through a time of huge resistance to become the UK's first female driver.

    Here's another interesting article that goes into more depth on women in the railway industry.

    Here's a picture of Karen and a few other rail ladies showing their attire at the time. Must be early 80's I would think?
    CEkKIMoWAAAOmaj.jpeg
     
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  33. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    This illustrates why DTG's approach is actually diminishing the achievements of female train crew. Anyone playing NTP would be led to believe that women had things easy on the railway, after all, DTG give the impression that half of the train drivers were women, there's no recognition of fighting hard to earn their place in a male dominated industry as DTG's interpretation implies equality from the very start.
     
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  34. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    If there’s more lady drivers we will all just get stuck at more infinite red signals.
     
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  35. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Member

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    If I recall the male NTP driver uniform (and I use uniform in the very loosest concept given there really didn't seem to be one :P) was mostly based off of the uniform the fellow on the right is wearing:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/deadmans_handle/4284983814/in/album-72157623225335472/
    If I recall the female uniform also came off a picture of a 80s female driver, or it might have been a hybrid of several but I can't remember exactly which one(s) now.
     

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