Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Feb 20, 2020.
Yeah - I know... Borstal...! For heaven's sake. What was he thinking...?
Anyway - thanks for bringing up the 155 bus route, because I reckon it will be really useful. So, now, whenever anyone pops out of the DTG offices to grab a quick Big Mac* on Chatham High Street, and they see the 155 bus heading off to Maidstone (or possibly returning from Maidstone)... then they'll get a quick visual reminder to check on progress with the patch for the DB BR 155.
Thank you ever so much...!
*although, I have heard that you can now get these delivered by Uber
Given how ambitious DTG were when TSW was first announced, I think it’s pretty clear that the engagement and motivation of creating DLCs and improving the core game itself has gone right down.
Heavy Haul and Great Western Express were done to an exceptional standard. The level of detail is still better than some newer DLCs, despite being the very first two routes for TSW. There are still bugs in these routes, which will likely never be fixed, however.
This just shows that TSW offers an inconsistent mess of routes, with varying degrees of quality. Sometimes better than the last, sometimes worse. So much for always improving.
No one has talked about it here, but do you know if it's a bug, the BR 155 which has no sound, in tunnels?
Hmm. I've not heard any mention of it, but in an entirely unrelated matter, the Alfa Romeo 155 V6 TI DTM makes a fantastic noise in Gran Turismo, particularly when you nail it through a tunnel.
Constructive criticism eh?
Okay - fair point... the DB BR 155 is not a major issue when you compare it to the "bug" that is 80% of the Hamilton docks area, that apparently "should never have been there in the first place, and we're sorry we told you it would be, as a key feature in the DLC, when we suggested you pre-order it, it's all our mistake, hands-up Guv'nor you caught us red-handed and bang-to-rights, don't you know.... (Trading Standards) Officer...."
But imagine this...... Imagine if you worked in an office in Chatham, which is really famous for its Chatham Dock Yards. And imagine you went for a walk, to see the Dock Yards, and just as you were approaching the outer edges of the Dock Yard area, you then found yourself teleported back to the office, looking at the menu for McDonalds. All that walking would have been for nothing. And you would have to walk back again to the High Street to get your burger.... or pay for a couple of stops on the local 155 bus (unless they have MaccyD deliveries in that area)!
Even worse, when you then distract yourself from the possibility of getting a Chicken McMilkshake, and you then glance at your desk and you see a local Tourist Information leaflet that is sitting there, and it says, quite clearly, in BIG FRIENDLY LETTERS.......... "If you've already done countless*** almost impossible things today, why not round it off with a trip to the Chatham Dock Yards, which you can fully explore, with no risk of anyone judging you, even if you are wearing a set of pink fluffy headphones."
You'd feel really annoyed.
Anyway - the moral of this story is that I would expect that if you work in an office located in Chatham, which is famous for its historical Dock Yards... that..... if it is also your job to build a set of virtual Dock Yards... that you do it correctly. And if you think that you've done it really badly, don't pretend otherwise. They should be experts in Dock Yards. It should be a case of: "Dock Yards...? Easy. We eat Dock Yards for breakfast."
I wouldn't expect them to build awesome windmills in the sky, like the Siemens SG 5.8-155, or to reach new heights at medium and high wind (https://www.siemensgamesa.com/en-int/products-and-services/onshore/wind-turbine-sg-5-8-155), but I would expect them to build a dock yard properly, if that is what they have promised.
No offense, but you really need to include a TL;DR section at the end of each answer you make ahahah
It is the journey that you are taken on that is the reward.
On a separate note, does anyone know how many times the 1-5-5 bug has been mentioned? I think we should throw a celebration when we reach one hundred and fifty five mentions.
I have no idea how many times the BR 155 bug has been mentioned, nor do I expect it to be fixed, just like several other items including the sprawling Hamilton Industrial Zones we were mislead into believing to be included with the DLC. From mentions in press releases, live stream and the map in the manual... Leading some to be excited and no longer concerned with the fact that the route is very short... Oh how they feel lied to, cheated, and mislead.
But no, I don't have a count for the BR 155. Lol
That was passed a very very long time ago. The DB BR 155 tunnel sound bug was mentioned and reported as a bug pretty much immediately after it was released for sale. And long before I even bought it as DLC (December 2019). Here are few historical threads that mention it:
The mistake that I made is that I should have made a thread asking "Has the DB BR 155 tunnel sound bug been fixed yet?", before I made the purchase. I think maybe we really do need a community-run public bug tracker. My only worry about this is that if the community does this, that there is a risk that it will become the definitive list that DTG then rely on.
And they really should just hire someone that can do QA/QC, and maintain a spreadsheet. Or even just a list, written on paper, with a pencil.
Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention. You could write a bug report to the Support Team. But if you do this, then you'll get a mesage back saying something like:
Thank you for your interest in [insert subject]. It sounds like you have a problem with your microwave oven. Unfortunately, this department only takes queries that fixes armchairs and house plants.
Have you considered doing about 2000 hours of research to see if there is anyone "out there" that can fix your problem for you? Maybe you could list every atom in your house, and then consider why you even bothered to exist in the first place. We do that all of the time, and it can be fun.
Anyway - thank you for your feedback. I am going to close this "Support" Ticket now, because it makes my numbers go upwards, which is useful, because I am trying to learn to count, and it's always interesting to see what the next number will be.
Back on topic...
The route is still on sale with the link to the manual which still claims on its map that all the industrial areas are accessible.
Well - it's a risk for them. I mean - if it's still like that by Friday, then maybe someone will take some action. It's a very silly risk to take in my opinion. But - to be fair to them, if they had legal advice that has said something like:
"The worst you can expect is for your bad reputation to be recognised by the authorities, be reprimanded and you could get a £15,000 fine"
... then they might take the risk. If they think that the risk assessment from the lawyer is reliable, and the loss of £15,000 is acceptable. Just as an example. It's possible.
synthetic.angel Silly question maybe...but have you actually submitted a ticket re the PS4 BR155 tunnel sound bug to http://dovetailgames.kayako.com?
wouldn't it be better logging a ticket rather than CONTINUALLY SPAMMING this thread and other non-relevant threads you deem it necessary?
I think I have answered this question, about five posts above this one. Funnily enough, the approach that I am taking, if you are referring to the DB BR 155 RSN tunnel bug issue.... looks like it might actually bear fruit. ;-) I have a funny feeling that it will be fixed in a patch very very soon. ;-D
No....you linked to a bunch of threads about it in the known issues forum but there is no indication anywhere there that YOU have logged a bug ticket via the link I provided.
Nevertheless...I can see Dmitri posted in one of them 16/9/19 saying they are aware of it ...did you not see this reply or maybe you did but decided to start spamming the forums about it anyway?
Great...so can you shut up about it now ?!?
I don't think a ticket will advance bug fixes.
They know and know the bugs that exist, but very very few are fixed.
I'm not just talking about the BR155
He's persistent, you've got to give him that! Feels like when every thread ended up with people complaining about a lack of editor, except I actually have the 155 bug and couldn't care less about the editor.
Well - funnily enough - all of these issues (Oakville product mis-"understanding", The Editor, and the broken DB BR 155) are all inextricably linked. And this is why I keep mentioning it all in this thread. And it's a simple link:
- people make stuff for TSW; and then...
- people don't test the stuff they make quite enough; and,
- people don't test anything that they make...., say, on the PS4 (including the DB BR 155 on RSN, for example)
These "people" might also be the same "people" that want a developer standard Editor for TSW, so that they can make stuff for TSW on PC, briefly test it on their very individually very high spec PC, and then sell it on PS4 without testing it on PS4, or indeed, on a 'normal' spec PC, or XBox. So customers just get lots of broken stuff, like the Oakville DLC, in perpetuity. And that is what I would call spamming, frankly. Spamming broken stuff, onto the market, repeatedly, for fifteen years.
It's a problem that has been created by the "culture" and "processes" (or lack of them) that evolved from TS20xx on the PC being very messily grafted onto the cross-platform Train Sim World title, in my humble opinion - for what it's worth.
Of course, there is a knock on effect that I am openly exploiting. So - if you happened to be the person that made the RSN- tunnel-sound-broken (but otherwise wonderful) DB BR 155, then the last thing that you would want would be for it's broken-ness to be associated with the cataclysmic catopalypse catastrophe, that was introduced as the Oakville SubDivision DLC, but is now known as the Yard Gate incident, or "HAIRY BALLS" (The Hamilton Area Industry Rail Yard Balls-Up, as coined, very effectively, by stujoy).
Of course, should DTG openly and recklessly breach Reg 5, Reg 6, Reg 9 and Reg 10 of CPUTR, by continuing to publish extremely misleading (and omitting) materials re Oakville, then this Yard Gate or "HAIRY BALLS" incident, might soon become known as: "Medway Council vs Railsimulator.com", if that is really what DTG wants to happen.
And so the DB BR 155 might then get caught up in that sort of scandal as well - which might motivate someone to now start testing the DB BR 155 loco (and...funnily enough.... this is now starting), and then to fix it.... which I reckon will now be done really very quickly, some years after the bug was reported to DTG's not particularly helpful "Support Team", and when the 2nd/3rd party makers presumably refused to check whether the bug was real or not on PS4 - because maybe they had not even bought a copy of TSW to test it on.... I kid you not..... ;-O
Anyway - strictly back to the main topic with Oakville - maybe a £15,000 fine and a slap on the wrist is fine for DTG, this time around. But - say, DTG then do it again with the next DLC, say, in breach of an Enforcement Order, then.... well... maybe somebody will then be going to prison for two years. And if the person responsible for it all is under 18, then maybe that person might be going to Borstal.
Okay. I have a suggestion.
We wait until close of play Friday 28th February (18:00 - UK time), and then we survey what marketing materials are in place for the OSD DLC. And then compare it to reality. (I might even buy the DLC, specifically for this purpose).
If there is a marked difference, then I will post a Poll asking Forum members if they want any action to be taken (to have the case formally reported to the authorities in the UK). If this is regarded as a popular approach, then I will build a case file next week, and if it looks like a "no brainer" for enforcement action, then I will report it. How does that sound, as a suggested way forward?
have a read of this one
I think someone has do do something. Synthetic Angel, if you have experience with this, I believe we'd be appreciative. Otherwise they will get away with it again, be emboldened even more, and it will only make things worse in the future. It doesnt matter whether it was intentional or not, the fact is this is looking like false advertising. We have a loooooooong history of this behavior from them, and if we give them a pass on this one, it will happen again and again. I feel like they've abused the trust and pocketbooks of too many people too many times to ignore this again.
I do have experience with this sort of thing. And I am happy to do it, very openly, step by step, on these Forums. Full transparency. No surprises. If this is permiited by Dovetail (on their Forums).
And to be fair - DTG should be congratulated for allowing this discussion to take place at all on their Forums - many companies would not allow this to happen. Everyone benefits because of this - because everyone sees the discussion.
It is quite serious though. And it does have serious implications, both for Dovetail, and for everyone that loves to play Train Sim World. Unintended consequences could mean that everyone loses out. This is also a risk. And this is why I would prefer to not have to do it all. I was also unsure if now is the right time - but after reading your post it makes me think that maybe now is the right time, after all.
So - I will have a look on Friday night (tomorrow night). All I will be looking for is whether or not DTG has decided to do its very best to comply with the law, in the UK, with respect to fair trading. If it is looking pretty bad on Friday, then I will set up a Poll and explain the next steps - and leave it to the community to decide what to do, over the weekend. This will be a lot of work, but if it is supported by the community, then I will put the effort in.
It's a good idea and I too think you should proceed as planned as I think it's the perfect time after what just happened. However, I also think we should give DTG the opportunity to respond and to make things right before pressing the "go button" as it were. It will be a lot less ugly if we can come to a mutual agreement.
Unfortunately they responded. Their answer and apology was shallow at best. They said they did not intend to include the entire area. It sounds like they are boiling it down to having published an incorrect map. No remedy was offered. This stinks because their promotional material and video stream mention this vast area which is not accessible.
I am of the belief that they will do nothing asides from reissue the map with the zones excluded and try to forget this ever happened.
I have never before been this angry about a piece of software I purchased. I am extremely disappointed. A huge part in my decision to purchase this route was the mention of the sprawling Hamilton Industrial Zones which were described as a "route into itself...".
Well - I want to be clear. If there is no evidence of an ongoing breach, at 18:00 on Friday 28th February, then I personally will not be taking anything forward - it will be a free pass from my perspective, and I would not then do anything unless it all happens again with the next DLC. But if it happens again, then what has happened with OSD would be included in a future complaint.
HEADS UP FOR DTG: Candidate materials that could be considered in breach include:
- the manual on Steam
- the DevStream video on YouTube
- any marketing materials on Steam, Microsoft and PlayStation stores***
- any marketing materials on Dovetail Live, and DTG's associated websites
If the above materials do not accurately describe the product that is the Oakville OSD DLC, and there is reasonable suspicion that the product is being sold using misleading information, or if the marketing materials omit critical information that could influence a purchase decision, then the process will move forward.
***EDITED TO ADD: As at 23:00 on 27th February (UK time), the descriptions of OSD on Steam, XBox and Steam stores have clearly been heavily revised to tone down the description of the "extent" of the product. Allowing for some reasonable amount of "marketing flair" - it is a massive improvement on what was there before - DTG have addressed this for ongoing sales. Progress.
Yes - it still is the same map in the manual, at time of writing this posting - the map that DTG said was in error:
It's been up for a whole week, even though they knew it mis-represented the OSD product.
Yep, I understand what you're saying but that was just their initial / first response. There's no reason why they couldn't change their response later based on what's being proposed. I'm just saying we should make sure we give them the opportunity, that's all.
Yes. Full transparency. No surprises.
The YouTube pre-release DevStream showing this in game map from the 65th minute, with commentary explaining that the entire Hamilton area was accessible, is still online:
It can be viewed from this link:
As at 23:00 on 27th February (UK time), the descriptions of OSD on Steam, XBox and Steam stores have clearly been heavily revised to tone down the description of the "extent" of the product. Allowing for some reasonable amount of "marketing flair" - it is a massive improvement on what was there before - DTG have addressed this for ongoing sales. Possibly reasonably. Progress....! ;-)
I have edited my summary post above to reflect this. But this still leaves the OSD manual (map) on Steam and the DevStream video.
The "Oh Canada" advertorial on the DTG website still contains the text:
"The upcoming Canadian National Oakville Subdivision route promises some of the most diverse, and challenging, railroad operations to be found, whether you are hustling along the multi-track main line of the Oakville Subdivision, gliding through Canada’s famed train-watching location of Bayview Junction, handling heavy work at yards which include Oakville, Aldershot, and Hamilton, or serving the nearly countless lineside industries along the line! Indeed, the expansive industrial trackage around the Hamilton area is virtually a route unto itself!"
And this can be viewed here:
DTG don't have to do much, to prevent potential ongoing breach of the law (in the UK), in my opinion. Unless Forum readers have concerns about anything more than I have mentioned above, then the outstanding items for removal appear (to me) to be:
- the manual (with map) on Steam
- the pre-release DevStream on YouTube
- The "Oh Canada" advertorial
Of course - you could (and should) be concerned about the initial swathe of marketing. And my view would be that if you have bought the OSD product and you are not satisfied, then you should ask to be refunded. So the last outstanding item (for me) would be:
- refund anyone that claims to have been misled by the marketing, and give four weeks to anyone that pre-ordered (31st March 2020), and one week to everyone else (6th March 2020), assuming that the three items listed above are removed/revised by 18:00 on 28th February 2020.
QUESTION: Does that sound fair enough?
They may be correcting (removing specifics) some of the verbiage, but isnt it a bigger issue that they didnt correct this all as soon as they became aware of the issue? And if they couldn't for some reason (over a weekend, etc), they should have pulled the product down at that time, until it could be corrected. Being aware of a false advertising issue, and leaving the product up as people continue to buy it is an issue in itself, no? The fact they're slowly fixing verbiage is somewhat irrelevant if the product can still be purchased on false pretenses elsewhere.
Yes - it's a massive issue that DTG allowed the initial release of OSD in the way they did. It's a massive issue that they keep selling a week later with some existing (fairly dodgy) marketing materials. And that is why I suggest that they give everyone a week to refund... after any questionable marketing materials are taken down.
If you are aware of any other marketing materials that substantively mislead, through untruth or omission - then please list them here, ASAP. I don't know (and can't know) if my search was exhaustive.
This doesn't take away the disappointment that everyone*** that felt misled has felt. Nothing ever will (probably). But DTG have started to take some action to remedy the situation. And this has surprised me (TBH). They have clearly recognised that something went wrong. And I think that is progress.... (others might disagree...).
NB: I am trying to be as objective as possible here. I have a fairly good idea how the regulatory framework works in the UK, and what the likely enforcement would be. And it is not worth wasting everyone's time if DTG are voluntarily prepared to take the final reasonable actions now, without formal action being required to force them to do it. And trust me, at the moment, I am really not DTG's best friend-advocate.... But this is a serious matter, and it has to be dealt with reasonably. You have to assess the potential for future harm, but also the final harm that was done.
PS: There is also another issue that I am not addressing here at all, which is.... does it (OSD) all work...? Is it fit for purpose...? But that's a far more complex issue (and would need some thinking about).
***EDITED TO ADD: The text "that felt misled" (following perfectly fair feedback from theorganist)
Who is "everyone" as I have seen quite a few people who are quite happy with this DLC, on here and elsewhere, so I do wonder if this is being made into a bigger issue than it is by some, seems a bit of a first world problem. It is almost is if some gleeful witch hunt is now taking place, I can imagine some users on here drooling at the prospect of being able to put a big boot in! Having read through the last few pages I wonder if some on here even get time to use TSW! I see the patronising tone has not abated either!
I imagine the only pleasure felt would be that associated with DTG demonstrating improvement of the product and evidence of listening to their customer base. Im open to a demonstration of that evidence but we shouldnt be quite so hasty to label others motivations if they are, as you say, putting the boot in. I for one will criticise and praise as appropriate, although a benchmark for that may be different to your own expectations. Therein lies the point- high expectations will result in higher levels of dissatisfaction. This is in itself not a bad thing. I want the product to improve, and past DLC to be raised to the new level if possible. I will point out examples where i feel this hasnt happened. Skybox as an example, and everyone has their own shopping list here. Its not bashing DTG, its an intolerance of mediocrity.
I think the vast majority of us want TSW to improve and evolve, I certainly have never said everything is perfect and can be as critical as the next person.
I am sure the majority of posters ire is justifiably directed at DTG for the right reasons, some posters on here seem to have an almost peculiarly personal anger, those who are never balanced it is almost as if DTG is a personal foe not a company who supply digital content!
To address your points in order:
1. "everyone" - Yes you are quite right, and I have amended my post above to reflect your feedback, in order to make it clearer. I did this immediately upon seeing your comment, and did not wait a week to react to it.
2. "happy with DLC" - Yes I agree with you, some people are happy with the DLC, and as I have clearly stated on other threads, this can sometimes be the majority (I have noted the five stars average rating on PS4)
3. "first world problem" - Yes it is a first world problem, we live in an advanced society where things like mis-selling of goods and services can be made subject to Regulation - and guess what... it is.
4. "gleeful" - Not in the slightest - not on my part anyway. I find this whole situation with OSD most depressing, actually. But, every cloud has a silver lining - there is always an opportunity to learn, to move on, to improve.
5. "boot in" - this is a Forum which is largely read and contributed to by the most devoted and loyal fans of TS2020 and TSW, with very few exceptions that may have an axe to grind. If the majority of people here vote in a Poll to take action against a continuing misrepresentation of the OSD product, then that would be quite a profound finding - it would literally be the fans asking their provider to do better, even potentially at their own cost - and that would be incredibly useful information for DTG to have.
I do not take any offence from your post - I think your point of view is just as valid as anyone else's.
Well - I am not sure who you are referring to here, but I can guarantee you that this is not a description of me. But if your description is aimed at me, in your opinion, do let me know - I am not shy when it comes to taking feedback. Because I am trying to be as balanced, objective and rational as possible. The marketing materials either are misleading, or they are not. That is not for me to decide. That's the job of a Trading Standards Officer.
No I certainly wasn't thinking of you with that description, but there are some, a small minority where you can almost imagine the bile emanating from them whilst they are typing. I have seen it on other trainsim forums and on forums related to completely other subjects, cars, musical instruments, community pages, where anger seems to be directed not at a product but the actual company who produces that product (an almost personal hatred). I have seen it on here and I could see this as the exact sort of cause some would love to fire up that anger, whether justified or not. But no you certainly weren't someone I was thinking of when I typed that it just rolled on from what I was trying to say.
For what it is worth I do think this forum is a broad church and we are all (mostly all) passionate about trains and simming, we just sometimes approach it from different angles and they do clash at times but I am sure if we all met in the local on a Friday night we would all (or most of us) get on really well. However I do feel there has been a pernicious underlying anger lately, which isn't always helped by the way DTG approach things, I get frustrated with silences some times, although I am definitely a glass half full person and feel that in the main it is a good product which I get plenty of enjoyment out of. You can't really say they don't ever fix bugs and they haven't abandoned it like Microsoft did with MSTS, where as I think some on here are glass half empty. However I still think there are a small amount of posters on here who seem more interested in having an anti-DTG agenda rather than merely being angry and frustrated which I am sure we all feel to varying degrees at times, maybe I am wrong in that assessment, certainly no-one would ever admit it.
My approach is to deny the vitriolic the oxygen of a response. The posts whither on the vine and the keyboard commandos either reform or go elsewhere. Its my ownership of my responses that is empowering, while a need to respond to an anonymous post is the opposite of that. Then of course if the post is vitriolic then its relevance and value to the community is minimal and so theres even less need to respond.
Its nice being able to decide when, if and how to respond
I agree. I know there are some annoyances about TSW/DTG, but I still think it’s a great sim overall, and I focus on the positives.
I think you are right, but I also see people that have a very pro-DTG agenda. Those that seem blind to the problems and will let DTG off the hook at every opportunity.
And that is probably the best way to approach absolutely everything in life.
(And I am very sorry if that sounded patronising, because it wasn't meant to be - I just always feel quite a bit of delight when people actually say "I focus on the positives"... ;-) ).
Ah good - it's probably just my paranoia chip being fed a bit too much current - I must get my resistors replaced... I had noticed that they were starting to get a bit warm... ;-O
Except for the DB BR 155 through tunnels on RSN on the PS4 - that wasn't even visited, let alone abandoned..... ;-D
More seriously, on the assumption that I will still be allowed to post things in future.., and that I won't be silenced like the DB BR 155 when it goes through tunnels... I will be making a very surprisingly positive post about bug-handling by DTG. Some people will be really quite shocked..... (nicely shocked, the sort of pleasant shock.... let's call it a *tingle*.... the sort of tingle that you get when you put your tasting appendages across the terminals of a 9V battery - although don't try that home kids...!)
Yeah - so - in a Poll - these people get drowned out by force of numbers - so keep faith, and I am sure it will all turn out okay in the end. (I have a good feeling about this.... although that doesn't always work, as we've seen with OSD....)
Point taken. Sometimes I may have come across like that but it is more often because I disagree with the manner in which points are made by certain posters than the actual point being made.
For me, I agree that each individual infraction / miscommunication / nonfunctional feature / false advertisement is generally not an egregious error. The problem is the cumulative result of all of these missteps is consumers are repeatedly abused by a company that only cares about continuing to walk that line just far enough to skate by, but not cause people to initiate action. That's not right.
Separate names with a comma.