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West Coast Main Line South Improvements

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DTG Protagonist, Sep 18, 2020.

  1. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    An old post but says it all.

    IFAIK that DLC was from a third party dev who appear to have walked away from it. Those who bought it should be refunded or credited.
     
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  2. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    I can confirm it is still being worked on, nothing has changed since my previous post. I will hopefully have some news for you soon however.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
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  3. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Where does this refer to the WCML South route? The post I quoted says that they have given up on fixing it.

    They have said they are working it, that is enough evidence to suggest they are. There is no evidence to suggest they aren't unless the poster is an insider at DTG and is leaking information!

    Of course when I patch is released you will all be on here apologising for intimating the DTG community managers are lying!

    Edit: It seems they are still working on it as expected.
     
  4. car147

    car147 New Member

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  5. TimeSlicedDanny

    TimeSlicedDanny Member

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    The challenge posed was to say what we think. I wrote down what I think, which is irrefutable evidence of what I think. Don't you agree?

    You may not agree with my thoughts, but as DTG are unwilling to provide further information at this point, and have not delivered the fixes in the time they advised is some evidence that supports my view. I hope I turn out to be wrong.
     
  6. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree, there is evidence that says they are have been and are looking at the problems, the date for release was a aspiration not set in stone. In real life completion dates are rarely achieved.

    What information do you need, a breakdown of who is working on it, what they are working on, how many hours a day they are working on it, what time they have a break, any overtime they are accruing!

    I want to see it fixed as I am waiting to purchase it but I am happy to use the other dozens of routes I have, one of the other three simulators I use or pursuing some of my other interests.
     
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  7. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    There is no evidence to prove anything at the moment as there has been no actual evidence produced in the form of a patch or a fix.

    What you claim is evidence is purely a statement that it is being worked on. This is not evidence, it is purely a statement.

    I could tell you that I own a company that is currently working on a competing train simulator. It is purely a statement which is evidence of nothing until something is provided to back up that claim.
     
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  8. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well unless you think they are lying then that is good enough evidence for any reasonable person. It certainly doesn't justify the assertion that they have given up on it and no fixes will be forthcoming.

    Of course for some whatever happens will never be enough.
     
  9. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    The Question I asked was about updates and not fixes


    A rhetorical question? Or did you seriously think DTG would abandon it?
     
  10. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Natster, much appreciated.
     
  11. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    You obviously don't fully understand what actually constitutes evidence.

    If you were caught stealing from a shop, which I'm sure you would never do or never have done, would you accept that the police just arrested you in the street or would you expect them to provide some kind of evidence such a CCTV footage of you actually stuffing something inside your coat and leaving the shop without paying?

    If you got a summons for speeding, would you just accept that they said you were speeding or would you expect to see some kind of evidence, such as a photo from the camera?
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    In the UK the police can arrest you without proof. Proof is required within 72 hours of arrest
    In the US police can (and will) shoot you with no proof or provocation

    I think you need a better example
     
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  13. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    What do you want, a video of them and virtual tour of the offices, what possible hard evidence could you want? Maybe they could produce a special time and motion study or maybe a nice pretty flow chart showing the progress they are making.

    They said they are working on it that is good enough for most people, of course for those who need to whip up a storm of anger it won't be good enough.
     
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  14. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think he must be bored! I certainly am now!
     
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  15. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    I think you will find in the UK, it's 24 hours before charge or release. A Superintendents authority is required for a further 12 hours. Anything above that requires a court authority who can authorize up to a further 36 hours. That however is for the most serious offences.

    They also have to have reasonable grounds to suspect you have committed an offence to arrest you.

    They then have to produce evidence that you have committed a crime or offence before you can be charged or reported for summons. Not just say that you did it.

    There is a difference between evidence and proof.

    Either way, DTG have provided neither evidence or proof that they are working on a fix.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  16. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘In real life completion dates are rarely achieved.’
    Some truth but in software most fixes are generally pretty quick. Most only need the resolution of a single line or piece of code or object. There are cases, where some horrendous problem has been introduced, which QA should have caught in the first place, that major surgery is needed. But in that case it really is their problem.
    Once code is broken and you know the root cause (and you should never give a completion estimate unless you know where it’s faulty, why and have a plan for the fix) setting a completion date shouldn’t be that risky. It’s true that once you’ve fixed one thing something else may then be impacted but that’s more the exception than the rule.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  17. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is whipping up a storm of anger, purely correcting the incorrect statement you had made. Or should that be evidence?
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  18. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Natster.

    Which rather proves my point that unless DTG have definitive news on fixes the only updates they can post is to say we are working on it.
    It's like being stuck in a traffic jam on a long journey with the kids in the back continually yelling "ARE WE THERE YET?"
     
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  19. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Reasonable grounds isn't evidence...
     
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  20. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Never said it was but it's not proof either.
     
  21. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    People are frustrated because this EXACT SAME scenario has happened before. It's become Dovetail's MO to release broken stuff, respond to the backlash by saying they'll fix it, give lots of "updates" saying it's coming soon, and then just let it die. No one here is being a conspiracy theorist by being worried that the same thing is happening again. This is literally what they've done in the past.

    I'll add that personally I'm leaning towards it happening again. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they legitimately were working on fixes, QA rejected them because it still sucked, and now they're realizing that it would take actual time and effort to fix, and they're going to just let this drag on and hope fewer and fewer people keep asking about it and making noise.

    BTW I do NOT think that Natalie or Sam are lying. I think they are giving us the best information they have at the time. It's not on them that they work for a dishonest company.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
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  22. TimeSlicedDanny

    TimeSlicedDanny Member

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    Poor example. Children behave like that because they can't tell the time and don't know distance. If you told an adult 72 miles to go, about 1.5 hrs that would be the end of it.

    Then after 72 miles/1.5 hrs and the end wasn't in sight they would start asking again.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
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  23. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Dudes, this is all we needed, and it's appreciated.
     
  24. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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  25. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    It looks as if there is a update just logged into steam and TS2021 is queued for a update
     
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  26. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    I can confirm that the update for WCML is now live. Many thanks for being patient throughout while this was being resolved.
    Please see this thread for a detailed explanation about what's been fixed.
     
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  27. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    It was tongue-in-cheek.
    But since you mention it I did say stuck in a traffic jam which is an unknown time frame therefore you could not accurately predict ETA to a child or an adult.
     
  28. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Gonna fire it up to see how much it's been improved.

    In hindsight, I think the fact it was released within 1 week of announcement and that one announcement was all we had (apart from a tweet saying it could be bought separately, as far as I can tell) was a big red flag that I didn't see until about a week or two after the fact.
     
  29. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Went from 10-14fps in the pendolino at Euston to 15-20...so...improvement? I guess?
     
  30. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I went from 8 to about 25-30 (once everything had loaded) at Euston, only occasionally dropping to load tiles in.

    The scenery is still a bit questionable (not surprising given it was largely unchanged in the update) but at least I can actually play the route now.

    EDIT: This was on 32-bit. On 64-bit, I got around 12-15 FPS.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  31. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Member

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    Are there any changes to the 'unfinished' Euston and New Street station models, there's also the platform at Tring which clips the train quite considerably (platform 5 on the up slow I believe), and the bridge at Berkhamsted (just south of the station on the down fast). None of these are mentioned so maybe they'll be patched in the next update? (I refunded the route so I can't check myself).
     
  32. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    No. They haven't made any changes to scenery other than those to help with FPS, clipping issues, etc. Like I said, it's still questionable.
     
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  33. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Other changes will probably come the next update to this route, the first update was to fix the bigger issue with the route.
     
  34. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    I think the Pendolino just sucks. I downloaded a workshop scenario for the DC lines on the WCML South before this patch and that ran fine.
     
  35. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes Sam did say that there would be more than one patch, as that caused a few complaints if I recall!
     
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  36. car147

    car147 New Member

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    Screenshot_WCML South_51.54873--0.29234_17-31-53.jpg I hope they remove the poor P-Way who's being dragged along by my Pendalino.
     
  37. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Amazing, thank you very much! :)
     
  38. george.conrad.allen

    george.conrad.allen New Member

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    much better now, ive got 30+ fps on the whole route!
     
  39. brummie

    brummie Member

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    Nice one, what were u getting before roughly?
     
  40. george.conrad.allen

    george.conrad.allen New Member

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    about 15-20 in euston and birmingham and up to watford junction, 30+ everywhere else
     
  41. brummie

    brummie Member

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    Thanks, that's great to know, I hope everyone sees a good improvement with this patch, happy simming!
     
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  42. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Good news I shall go and purchase it over the weekend
     
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  43. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Member

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    Not seeing a lot of improvement if I’m honest. I was getting 15 FPS before. Now I get 15-20. Other routes I can play on highest/1440p at 40 FPS. This one I’m having to drop to Medium and 1080p & having to turn off Dynamic lighting and cloud. I’ll continue to play it, but I was hoping for a bigger improvement.

    EDIT : After seeing others report much better frame rates than me, I decided not to give up. I uninstalled the DLC and made sure all traces of it were gone. Then downloaded again. Much better now and am back to running at highest on 1440p. Getting 25-30 out of Euston and in other scenarios as much as 40 fps. Much more playable. So for me looks like it didn't install correctly the first time. Looking forward to plugging in the Raildriver at the weekend and spending a bit more time on it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  44. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Getting a solid 14fps sat in a pendo at Euston. I get up to 80fps on other routes.
     
  45. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    I've not tried it yet, I almost dare not do so.
     
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  46. mike370

    mike370 Active Member

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    I know the feeling!! lol

    Here's hoping (takes a deep breath before firing up TS2021!). :)
     
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  47. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Godspeed good buddy :cool:
     
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  48. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    I think the default Pendolino scenario is just a performance nightmare. Still get sub 20 fps on it, but run a pendolino in a workshop scenario or quick drive and the FPS is really good, so...what's up with that scenario?
     
  49. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully it will delight you, it's your hard earned $ you're handing over. Freedom of speech and expression is important. Let people talk. Don't tell people they can't talk. It's really straightforward.

    I come from a time where you couldn't offer a downloadable patch to fix broken work. Things just got shipped working.

    I will never understand those that ardently defend something that isn't right.
     
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  50. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    That last line of your post is the key here. You haven't spent any money on the product yet. Those complaining the loudest have already dropped money on the product and expected at least a bare minimum of quality that wasn't met. They/we had skin in the game, you didn't.
     
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