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Tsw: Switching In The Subdivision!

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I reckon this is all just DTG trolling Anthony by seeing how far they can tank their DLC quality before they actually break him ;)
     
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  2. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

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    :D:D:D
     
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  3. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    Most likely this route will be a part of whatever TSW2021 becomes so I do believe in a sense, this route might get attention in the future, but at this point major fixes to get sales from us aren't gonna happen
     
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  4. brandonmc205

    brandonmc205 Member

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    If they were smart, they’d be making a hell of a lot more than what they are now.

    Sounds a bit like DTG right now. Depressing.

    So much potential being flushed down the toilet.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  5. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I never said DTG/TSW was perfect. People just make them out to be way worse than they are.
     
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  6. deki32

    deki32 Active Member

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    *TSW customers at DTG office after OSD release shenanigans*
    [​IMG]
     
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  7. A_normal_name

    A_normal_name Member

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    I laughed, you can have a like
     
  8. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  9. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    They're probably assessing the sales data before they make their move. They know they've stood on a landmine, but they're waiting for the smoke to clear to see how many limbs they've lost.

    I think there are two possibilities:

    If they've not sold many copies and they've already refunded a lot, they might just offer a refund to anyone who wants one, fix the manual and description, and then drop the price by 50% in the next sale. Along with an apology for a 'miscommunication.'

    If they've sold a lot of copies they won't want to issue refunds as they'll lose more than the cost of adding the missing scenery, so they'll announce that they'll add the remaining scenery and open up the harbor/yards around Hamilton in an update, as well as an apology for something vague like 'failing to meet the expectations of our customers.'
     
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  10. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    Although I do think sales will impact whatever decision is made, I do also think anyone who wanted a refund has gotten one at this point. My thought as I mentioned above is that this route will be the North American route for TSW2021, and any improvements might be made then, but nothing substantial.

    The larger issue I see is the content is dropping off in quality for the sake of speed and money. This was a make or break moment for DTG, and they set the tone. I do hope that if there is an editor in the hands of 3rd Party developers, we do see content start to arise this year, even if it's distributed by DTG.

    I almost want to equate this route to the Glasgow Airport Link route in TS, but this isn't at that level yet. We might be approaching it though.

    Edit: Also, considering that the DLC has so many negative reviews, fixing it won't take that away. I can't imagine everyone who wrote a negative review would change it if their issues were resolved.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  11. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a case of either offer a refund or fix the product, and DTG will do whichever is cheaper, based on the sales projections from the sales over the weekend.

    The amount of content in each DLC has been slowly reducing as time has gone by, as well as the overall quality.

    DTG's decision to make certain routes is also flawed. Apparently they couldn't get the GO branding license, so to me that would mean a route featuring GO trains is off the table and I would search for an alternative route which features only CN. By modelling the OSD, they have had to put resources into creating several GO stations, which serve no function on the route, aside from being eye candy. On a CN only route, these same resources could have been put into creating several detailed trackside industries for the player to serve. Instead, they have GO passenger stations which can't be used and trackside industries with no scenery, on a 'freight and switching route,' it's madness.

    DTG also miss 'easy wins,' things like the crossbucks, which would have taken just a few minutes to reskin from the US ones they used:
    upload_2020-2-24_17-12-49.png

    The crossbucks add a lot to the appearance of the route, but require very little resources to create.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  12. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Slightly off topic but... I tried the link in OP on page 1 of this thread and got this...

    Screenshot 2020-02-24 at 16.55.15.png

    The article is still there on Dovetail Live if I go through the TSW homepage. Seems odd for an official link from the official forum not to work.
     
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  13. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Oh... interesting post. If I take your post literally, and absolutely at face value (and I think I probably should), then... um..., well then... wow..... Because both of your listed possibilities seem to be wildly optimistic to me.

    They are real, and perfectly reasonable possibilities (for responsible software companies). But I can't see either of your two scenarios happening - and that's coming from me, and I see myself as usually being the optimist in the room...... ;-)

    It will be interesting to see what happens.

    But, just as a probably moot point.... I would just say that as the hype and speculation rolled around in the "Oh Canada...." thread, about the extent and playability of the OSD route, before the release, that it was already pretty darn clear that after the release that there would be a very large number of disappointed customers. I am not blaming DTG here for the positive hype generated by players themselves (including me) in the Forums, or indeed suggesting that DTG should have intervened to lower expectations... what I am saying is that DTG have had several days (countless days?) before the release to understand the extent of the mistake that has been made... and the likely reaction from customers.

    They have had weeks (and possibly months) to work out what they now need to say to customers, not just the few days since Friday.
     
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  14. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

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    • Thanks to zsmonostori80 he's summed up Dtg perfectly well, better than I could.
    • Hello,
    • I have just requested another refund on yet another terrible Dovetail Games product. I am not even looking for support anymore. I just want to inform you that I have never, in my 25+ years purchasing digital content, have come across such con artists as this bunch. Each and every product Dovetail Games releases comes with a plethora of bugs that are never fixed. You guys just keep spitting out half-baked stuff, ripping off your users who put their trust in you (feed you, pretty much). Such a disgusting way of doing business.

    1. [​IMG]

      Let's see what is the case with the TGV Reseau + Duplex DLC, this fine-looking, officially (SNCF) branded high-speed trainset.

      The product was released in December 2018, more than a year ago. The overall user review is "mostly negative" on Steam. Many of those reviews list the issue with the pantographs that reach way above the overhead wires. The issue is also discussed here on these forums.

      No matter which "pantograph tension" is selected in the cab, the pantographs are above the wire (tested only at Marseilles St. Charles station) on classic lines. Have not even bothered checking what is the situation like on the LGV section as this is already a no-go for me.

      [​IMG]

      How can a product be released with such an obvious bug, with the pantograph - pretty much the first thing a real train enthusiast will look at - going above the source of power? I tell you how: out of pure ignorance, laziness, disrespect towards users. Out of greed, this crazy rush for profit, not caring about anything else than the revenue.

      It makes me happy that the flight simulation genre repelled this mosquito.

      There isn't a single Dovetail Games DLC without bugs resulting from their own laziness, lack of care. But if there is no love for what you are doing, no passion, no enthusiasm, then don't do it at all. At this point, Dovetail Games no longer seems to care.

      In the good old days, although bugs were very much present (which is normal as long as there is an effort to fix them), there were efforts made - within a reasonable time - trying to get them sorted. Not anymore. Every week (pretty much) there is a new product being announced, old stuff, however, are never fixed. The newcomers no longer have a unique personality anymore, each is just a price tag, a "product" in the store that ceased to be a "Route, a "Train" or whatever else that deserves the capital letter, and is nothing else than a smartly marketed item so that we spend more of our hard-earned money.

      Every aspect of the game is about making a profit. The user interfaces with the quick in-game store access, even the users' screenshots as the loading screen, are all there to hint to our subconscious to buy, buy, buy. If only a fraction of the effort was spent on fixing old bugs...

      Dovetail Games (well, way before the name "Dovetail Games" was picked) used to develop nice things. I remember when the Sherman Hill and the old NEC routes were developed, I guess it was back in 2012 or so, many months passed with simple screenshots as teasers, the upcoming route(s) or whatever the team was working on was given a fair deal of attention, love and care, and one could feel something truly amazing is about to come. Something that was built with love and passion. Not anymore. One after the other they appear, lacking personality, rushed, full of errors, mistakes, dozens of issues, more bugs than one can count. Research is not made, there is an obvious lack of knowledge in many areas when it comes to technical aspects. If you are unsure, ask, do more thorough research and especially, do listen to feedback because users often know things you do not.

      From a relatively fine developer team a long time ago, from one that at least tried hard - although often with numerous mistakes but at least with a drive to get them right - Dovetail Games has become the brand of guaranteed bugs, inaccuracies, the team that delivers nothing but utter thrash, on every single occasion. Lack of quality, precision, not doing research properly, not testing release candidates properly, just releasing them. The only aspect which I still find acceptable is the visuals but it may change seeing how Dovetail Games loves to cut corners. I am wondering when shall they start to simplify the visual and modelling bit too, selling Minecraft-like stuff.

      The pantographs of the TGV Reseau, as Dovetail Games imagined it. Why do we have overhead wires then? What is the point? If trains can travel with the pantograph scratching nothing but the pale blue sky, then why to waste development time by adding hundreds of miles of gantries and wire? Let's just raise the pantograph into the mid-air and hooray, let's run!
     
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  15. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    They just need to update the certificate and all will be good.
     
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  16. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    From now on I shall refer to this as the Hamilton Area Industrial Rail Yards Balls-up (or HAIRY BALLS for short)*

    *stolen from my own post on another thread but I thought more people deserved to see it !!!
     
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  17. AntonK_007

    AntonK_007 Well-Known Member

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  18. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes - I remember this. I get:


    -----------------------------------------------------
    Warning: Potential Security Risk Ahead

    Firefox detected an issue and did not continue to dtg.live. The website is either misconfigured or your computer clock is set to the wrong time.

    It’s likely the website’s certificate is expired, which prevents Firefox from connecting securely. If you visit this site, attackers could try to steal information like your passwords, emails, or credit card details.

    What can you do about it?

    Your computer clock is set to 2/24/2020. Make sure your computer is set to the correct date, time, and time zone in your system settings, and then refresh dtg.live.

    If your clock is already set to the right time, the website is likely misconfigured, and there is nothing you can do to resolve the issue. You can notify the website’s administrator about the problem.
    ------------------------------------------------------
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  19. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I myself would like to see a combination of both first off apologize for the poor work done on this new route and the other routes as well. As I was really expecting this route to be something great and it turns out to be just okay. I agree open all the yards do not just model them and make them of limits, that is just not right and is very misleading that is more that cannot be used.

    Then I would like to see a promise to make things right back by going back and fixing what is wrong with the DLC this includes scenery , the locos and adding the missing rail cars. Such CN box cars, small gondolas and flat cars.
     
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  20. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes - I am the thief - sorry....! I just wanted your excellent FLA (Five Letter Acronym) to get wider use... - I will drop back into that thread and give you a credit - sorry again.... ;-!

    ---------
    That post (in https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/thank-you-for-the-oakville-dlc-devs.20696/) has now been edited to append the following:

    *EDITED TO ADD: The phrase "HAIRY", used to describe the Hamilton Area Industry Rail Yard BALLS UP (also known as "HAIRY BALLS") was conceived, composed, written and first used by the wonderful stujoy and was disgracefully used (here) without prior permission, for which I expect to be admonished countless times (ie. four times) - or twice per ball.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  21. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I see you joined last August, so I'll do you a storytime from days of yore. ;)

    DTG had RT on sale for a couple of years with a description containing 'Navigating the busy S-Bahn will require you to master the layout of the route and the functions and systems of your train as well as Deutsche Bahn’s unique signalling system,' except you couldn't master them because the PZB was broken. Matt Peddlesden then said in an interview that DTG had no intention of fixing the PZB on RT, yet they still claimed that such systems could be mastered.

    When DTG tried to release the BR182 DLC for RT without fixing the safety systems, they faced huge backlash on these forums and they actually delayed the product release and decided to fix the PZB on RT. So on release the PZB was fixed on RT. So DTG will react if their feet are held close enough to the fire.

    Original announcement: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/tsw-time-for-a-sprint.15146/

    Final release: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/tsw-sprint-along-rapid-transit.15707/

    After listening to the community here and fixing the BR182, they now have a DLC on Steam with a 'Very Positive' rating: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1010130/Train_Sim_World_DB_BR_182_Loco_AddOn/

    What's interesting is, as you say, the forums here indicated that people would not be happy if the OSD didn't feature all that trackage around Hamilton, yet unlike the delay they used to put the RT PZB right for the BR182 after listening to the customers, they chose to ignore the customers on this forum regarding OSD. And they are paying the price.
     
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  22. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    For info... From the Dovetail Games website (not Dovetail Live)...

    Screenshot 2020-02-24 at 17.56.14.png
     
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  23. brandonmc205

    brandonmc205 Member

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    This is like when Gordon Ramsay goes to failing restaurants on Kitchen Nightmares and reads their “values” on the menu and they’re a load of crap.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  24. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    This made me laugh! It's very true!

    Restaurant owner: 'Our food is like a 9/10 or maybe a 10/10.'
    Gordon Ramsay: 'It's like a dog vomited on my plate, turned around, and then took a steaming dump on it!'

    upload_2020-2-24_18-29-44.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  25. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I think that they actually believe that everything they do is fully in line with these values. Seriously - I do not think that DTG are in any sense "bad people" - just.... well.... maybe.... the water around the Medway area has a high ppm of unmetabolised hallucinogenic compounds... maybe... Like that bit in GTA V when all the aliens appear...? Maybe...?
     
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  26. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    That's not strictly true. If they go back and finish OSD properly and include all the stuff they promised, there's a fair chance that I'll buy it at some point and our faith will be restored in future DLC. If they don't, I won't be contributing to their income from it and I'll certainly be assessing the value of future DLC more closely.
     
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  27. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    What ever happened to constructive criticism?
     
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  28. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    Whatever happened to the statement DTG was going to give about this all? We don't want this to also turn into an echo chamber either now do we? \s
     
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  29. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    They should construct the rest of the route. :)
     
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  30. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Actually in this case I believe everyone for the better part are offering constructive criticism, and being civil to each others posts.
     
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  31. brandonmc205

    brandonmc205 Member

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    So do the owners on Kitchen Nightmares.

    New TV show: Game Dev Nightmares. S1E01: Dovetail Games
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  32. nne4229

    nne4229 Well-Known Member

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    Monday is here, where's DTG's response? Anyone have any info?
     
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  33. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    Their response is probably blocked by some buildings on a track in an inaccessible area of their office...

    Nothing new though.
     
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  34. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

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    Nothing, zilch, nada...according to DTG update following the weekend doesn't mean Monday!
     
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  35. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone have a list of every bug in each TSW dlc? It would be interesting to see how many they’ve yet to correct. Obviously some will effect the game more than others but a bug is a bug.
     
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  36. brandonmc205

    brandonmc205 Member

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    They all went home.

    This is a perfect example of Ostrich Syndrome. Where the person is tasked with a difficult decision and instead of dealing with it, chooses to stick their head in the sand and ignore it as if it didn’t exist. Hoping that it will go away.

    Using this in my essay for my communications class next week. Thanks DTG for a real world example.

    Maybe your dev and PR teams would benefit from taking some communications classes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  37. nne4229

    nne4229 Well-Known Member

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    Someone start a new thread for their response. We're gonna be at 20 pages on each OSD thread by the time they answer.

    Anyone notice the threads with the most replies and views overall since the start are either negative feedback or simply about how secretive DTG is and we don't know what they're up to or coming up with next.
     
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  38. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

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    A whole working day has passed without any comment on this ridiculous situation from anyone at DTG on their own official forum, you couldn't make it up. But at the same time I'm not surprised.
    Communicate regularly and honestly with customers they say in their office speak bullshit.. Don't make me laugh.
    Absolute bunch of clowns all that's missing is the big-top.
     
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  39. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Development time. ;)
    This stuff needs to be written first of course. And then properly tested. I guess they're reading a few versions outloud at Chatham town square, and whichever results in the fewest tomatoes and pichtforks flying their way gets released!
     
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  40. John Murphy

    John Murphy Well-Known Member

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    Or more likely, they just won't do anything at all.
     
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  41. StratPlayer62

    StratPlayer62 Well-Known Member

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    What he said......../\
     
  42. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    That might be risky. An open invitation to a false advertising complaint.

    I expect there to be some sort of reaction, and right now they are thinking very carefully of what it will be.
    Alternatively, heads might be rolling as we speak at Fort Dovetail. It might after all still be an unintentional screw-up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  43. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    If people want to contribute to a public bug-tracker, then I am starting to become very tempted to set one up, along the lines of the proposal here:

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/forum-list-of-known-bugs-and-issues-poll.18278/


    And someone else proposed a more involved/formal process (owned by DTG) here:

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/a-public-bug-tracker-would-benefit-us-all-poll.15931/


    I am tempted to set one up, for the sole purpose of flagging up the broken sounds on the DB BR 155, which, for the LOVE* of Google... I still have still not had any joy in using because it is bugged to death (a silent death). But I think, in reality, that I'd need to see a lot of support/desire to keep it going (it is a lot of work to just set it up - properly) - like a few hundred votes in the poll, and a few IMs indicating a strong willingness to contribute and help out.

    NB: I actually manually typed the word "LOVE" above... just a bit of fun.. ;-)
     
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  44. John Murphy

    John Murphy Well-Known Member

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    Lol, you get offended at ANY criticism against DTG, constructive or not.
     
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  45. nne4229

    nne4229 Well-Known Member

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    If they were serious about fixing bugs and having quality content they would let us test content before it releases then they can charge for it. We all treat this like an alpha game because it basically is. Until it’s not we’ll continue this path.
     
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  46. brandonmc205

    brandonmc205 Member

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    I’m done with doing bug reports. I wasted hours of my valuable time replicating and documenting bugs for Heavy Haul and posted an easy-to-read, organized thread and they never even replied.

    In fact, they literally JUST fixed the spelling error on the covered hoppers last week with OSD. I posted that report over 2 years ago.

    They simply don’t care.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  47. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you are right. If you keep going down that path then you'll end up making breakfast for the devs and driving them to work, every day.
     
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  48. 4-COR

    4-COR Member

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    I'm getting quite worried with the constant 20-25 mile routes, with reused locomotives.
     
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  49. nne4229

    nne4229 Well-Known Member

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    Sorta response, better than nothing ..
     

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  50. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    I have a feeling we’ll not hear much from DTG until the next dlc is announced. They better make sure it’s a good un’ or things could turn very sour for them.
     
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